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Upgrading my 9-5 2.0 LPT after a turbo blow up...

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5K views 18 replies 7 participants last post by  Mr Lucky 
#1 ·
As you may have read, my 9-5 suffered catastrophic 'death by turbo oil seal failure' last week. As you may also be aware my 9-5 has the Hirsch 210hp ECU and is also converted to run on LPG.

So far I have bought the oil breather kit (sourced from Neo Brothers for £30-odd quid) to replace the one that is on and has a 1/2 inch split on the bend just as it turns down from the cam cover. The sump will be dropped and checked for sludge with the oil strainer being cleaned as a matter of course. A new turbo will be fitted.

So now the search for parts begins!

Abbott Racing seem to know their stuff so I am happy to source parts through them. They seem to have everything I need and quite a lot more that I just want.

I will be buying from them the upgraded Garrett GT17 turbo and also the full system 3 piece stainless 3" performance exhaust.

Now here is where I need your help. The budget doesn't stretch a Hi-flow intercooler, racing intake pipe, delivery pipe, ITG filter system and dump valve (all of which I would love).


I have a budget after buying the exhaust and the turbo of £750.

What else do I buy for the motor?

I am not interested in getting anything else for any other aspect of the car just yet. I want to focus on the engine first.

Here are the prices (I am assuming the need to have v.a.t. added)

ITG Filter system: £295 10bhp
Intercooler: £525 10bhp
Intake pipe: £295 10bhp
Delivery pipe: £325 12bhp
Dump Valve: £95 Not known


What items would you choose?

Your budget is the absolute maximum of £750...
 
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#2 ·
Does not answer your question exactly BUT, why buy the upgraded GT17? If Im not mistaken this is very expensive compared to sourcing an aero turbo. You can get a new Aero turbo for around £550 from a Saab dealer, £350 recon.

Put this turbo on, get your 3" exhaust and get a ECU upgrade from Nordic or Maptun etc and your car will be better and far cheaper than the route your thinking of (my opinion of course)
P
 
#3 ·
Hi, I would stick with abbott as i like the way they do bussines plus i haven't heard a bad word against them yet. However in my own honest but most warped opinion i would forget about the dump valve as i dont think it enhances performance it just sounds nice. ( i know about recirculating types but have had mixed reviews on them and no hard evidence). So i would get the ITG filter system and then would source the bigger intake pipe from ebay at around £80 leaving me enough to buy the delivery pipe new. Should therefore give you an extra 30bhp and a little change. Do you have upgraded suspension??? cause that might be an avenue to direct the spare change towards. Its nice having over 200bhp but useless if you cant go round corners with it. Good luck and happy spending. p.s do agree with forgetting about upgraded turbo as standard one would be fine with your ecu if you get the car desludged. This would mean you could afford everything else. Of course its up to you mate.
 
#4 ·
Bloody hell!
. Now I would go down the Aero turbo route if anyone can ASSURE me it is the right way to go. I know KevR has doen it but how much different is it to the smaller Garrett system regarding pipework, bolts, fittings etc. I don't want to buy it and then find I am spending another £200 on pipes and fiddly bits that I am waiting days for delivery on. Has anyone done a definitive write up on exactly what is required and what it costs?

Damn, I had it all sussed out turbo-wise anyway! Back to the drawing board.

Sometimes you lot can have too many good ideas. You spoil me for choice...
 
#5 ·
The big Aero turbo is a little slower spooling up, I believe. I think it would be wasted on the 2.0 litre engine. You don't need that much throughput for a road car, surely?

The one nice thing about the 2.0 litre 9-5's I've driven is the quick response to the throttle.
 
#6 ·
Hmm, well you obviously didn't drive mine before the Hirsch ECU upgrade. It was dog-slow. A great car let down by the 150 mousepower engine under the bonnet! Even with the ECU upgrade I wouldn't say it is a very fast car, nowhere near my old Skoda vRS, although I have seen more than twice the legal limit on the clock.

Will the Aero turbo spool up quicker with my ECU giving the car more boost and a free flowing exhaust? Surely that should negate any extra lag over the smaller Garrett turbo? And what is the point of saving money by buying the Aero turbo only to loose it again by having to have another ECU upgrade from Maptun or Nordic, and what would these ecu upgrades take the car up to as opposed to keeping my Hirsch 210 upgrade? I'm just getting deeper into complicated questions. Still with you chaps around and all the knowledge floating around in here I am in the right place to have those questions answered.

So I could go the Aero turbo route, get the ITG filter, and replace the intake and delivery pipes. The dump valve from Abbott is the piston type, not the diaphragm version and I believe (although I could well be wrong) it helps hold higher boost. The annoying problem I have with the Hirsch ECU upgrade at the moment is that power comes in very prominantly at 4500rpm up to the rev limiter, changing at the redline (or just before the limiter kicks in) drops the rpm just below the 4.5k threshold, meaning the car doesn't accelerate smoothly when it is really getting floored. This is really most annoying in the changes from 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd. Ideally I would like something that is going to keep the motor in the 'sweet spot'.

If this is doable then the only thing missing from the equation is the hi-flow intercooler. I could even afford that if I sourced a really cheap Aero turbo but I am nervous about buying secondhand or reconditioned ones.

Does anyone have any idea how much extra power (from the 210 it is now) I would get from putting the Aero turbo, 3 inch Abbott full exhaust system, Abbott intake and delivery pipes and ITG filter system on? Looking at the site they are claiming approx 10 hp from all of the mods except the turbo (no idea what that would give). Adding it all up and doing the very rough math seems to be saying about 40hp. Would you think more or less?

Arrrgh my head hurts...
 
#7 ·
You only really "need" the higher flow intake pipes etc. when you're pushing the 2.3 Aero engine beyond stock output. You will get a small improvement from upgrading the cobra (big intake) pipe but rather than aabuy the Abbott one, you can pick up a s/h Aero one, which is bigger than a 2.0 for around £20-£30. Another cheap and effective upgrade is to replace the air filter intake pipe with the one form the V6 diesel. About a tenner from a main dealer. A better performing air filter is helpful, but I wouldn't go the whole hog on the ITG induction kit. Unless your current dump valve is faulty, you won't see any improvement from a new shiney one. Again, you can pick these up s/h for around half the new price.

The exhaust is a must, it totally transformed my Aero, and I would also go for the intercooler.

As for the turbo... the upgraded GT17 would be the best match for your engine- you simply don't need the higher flow rates offered by the Aero turbo. However, it is true that the exhaust/intercooler upgrades would largely offset the extra lag. It depends on how deep your pockets are.

Are your injectors red or black? Hopefully they are black, which flow around 20% more than the red, which were fitted upto MY00.

However... if you are seeking optimal power/torque from your new hardware, then you must have your ECU remapped. I'm sure Abbott will do you a deal for the ECU re-mapping if you buy the exhaust and I/C from them. You might like to consider selling your Hirsch ECU first and getting a s/h normal one to replace it.

So, to summarise, my recommendations are:

Exhaust
Intercooler
Aero cobra pipe
ITG filter (just the filter, not the whole housing)
V6 intake pipe
Best turbo: upgraded GT17, second choice: Stock Aero.
ECU remap

As for power, well no, you can't just add up the individual components unfortunately. But I would expect a tweaked 2.0 to be able to deliver around 250odd hp, with a very quick response. Abbott do offer a kit with the Aero turbo that delivers more power, but I suspect that this is at the expense of responsiveness. Maximum hp figures are not what it is all about; for on the road progress you want a turbo that comes in nice and early and is very responsive.

HTH
 
#8 ·
Hi M. Thanks for that detailed response. As you can imagine my head was spinning from all the options. That has clarified things for me.

I responded to your pm as soon as I came in here so I didn't get to read what you put in this post before I made myself look like a complete [expletive deleted] by responding to your pm. Yup, I'll take that deal! PM me with the postal charges and I will send you the total amount.

OK so Abbott are getting the money for:

Full 3" exhaust system.
GT17 UPGRADED turbo.
Intercooler.
ITG filter only.

SAAB main dealer/ebay:
V6 intake pipe.

Hirsch gets divorced and put on ebay which should pay for the s/h ecu and remap.

Ok are we all clear on how Lucky's rather ill 2.0t is going to come bouncing back to health?

Does anyone else have any other suggestions to put along side what has already been mentioned?

If so let me know. I have got about a week before I start sourcing all of these parts so I don't have to rush out and get it all sorted right this minute.

But I am off to check on my injector colour.

Back in a mo.


Pleasebeblackpleasebeblackpleasebeblack...
 
#9 ·
FLYING SODFISH! They're bloody red. More expense.


Do the black ones just replace red or are they different?

And with the Hirsch ECU I have should they have been changed to black for me to 'feel the benefit' as it were?

Mnnnnrrrrggg! More questions...
 
#10 ·
If they are red, then this simply limits the max power you can extract to around 250 IIRC. That's still a fair old whack. You'd need to check with someone like Abbott on this. I would say you only HAVE to change them if you want to go above this sort of level.

I said black because it's preferable to keep things working well within their nominal operating range. You will be in that range most of the time with the red injectors, but on odd occasions you will be pushing them to near their max duty cycle.
 
#11 ·
Mr Lucky,
What year is your 9-5?
Pre 2001 models will have green injectors that have a lower 'high' flow rate. The REDS are the ones you want - these will do you for 300+ hp. This is why early 9-5s need the RED injector upgrades, later models already had them.
Also, the turbo intake (AKA cobra) was upgraded to the Aero one on facelift cars, so no need to buy one depending on age of your car.

Essentially you've got to decide on how powefull you want your car - from your first post it seemed that your aim was to get the most power possible out of your 2.0 lpt. Your then chosen route to power was rather an expensive one and the bottom line is you want get more than about 250 using the small GT17 turbo, yes the iITG intake, Intercooler upgrade etc will make it slightly more responsive but it will be big bucks for little power gain. Cheaper route will be Aero turbo, which will negate having to do all the rest and will still be more powerful. This turbo is seen by many tuners as the perfect compromise between power and spool up.

Here are my experiences in brief:
- Stage 1 (bsr) slightly better up to 4.5k revs then a screaming banshy right up to red line [215hp]
- Stage 3 (Nordic) red injectors, Aero intake, 3" exhaust, ECU: Came in hard at 2.4K revs and pulled all the way to red line. A rather nice experience. [250hp]
- Stage 4 (Nordic) as above but with Aero TD04 turbo and ECU: Comes in hard at 2.9k revs but continues to pull even harder i.e more boost being fed through as revs rise. [280 hp]

What do I prefer? Stage 4!

Ive got the usual Forge dump valve, sports air filter etc, and use 99RON fuel.
I would like to get a Front mount Intercooler at some stage to improve year round performance.

PS - Yes you will need some extra pipe work for the Aero turbo, cost me just over a hundred quid from a Saab Main dealer.

Listen to all the advice and chose your own path, as most will say tuning is an addictive experience!!

P
 
#12 ·
My car is one of the last before the 2001 facelift. 2001 registered on a Y plate. I am in a real quandry on which way to go.

However, my SAAB is converted to LPG and I want to continue to run my SAAB on LPG. I do about 30000 miles a year so I must keep the LPG otherwise fuel costs would be rediculous.

What 'pipework' do I need if I do go down the Aero turbo route?

Ta...
 
#13 ·
Pipe work will be:
Oil feed pipe, water feed and water return. The pipes are slightly different in shape to the one the GT17 uses. You will also need the Banjo bolts (the bolt that bolts the pipe to the turbo)

Kev gave me a a diagram I could PM you when/ if you decide ( I think he actually used the same oil feed pipe)
P
 
#15 ·
There is a mixture of opinions, about them, on this forum. Personally I have never used them so can not offer a comment.[/b]

I used to use Abbott till I found that you can often get the same parts from Forge or Elkparts (dump valve, manual boost valve (9k), etc. etc.) for about half the price and they are exactly the same parts. Abbott claim to produce these items themselves as a result of their extensive design and testing - I wasn't so sure and started to feel they were ripping me off. Abbott's attitude towards lpg conversions and performance was also less than satisfactory - in fact they were quite hostile.

Mr Lucky - you want to stay lpg and such power can be got from this fuel but you must bear in mind that it has higher octane levels but lower calorific value than petrol and this has to be taken into account. So, why are you worrying about the colour of your petrol injectors - it's your lpg injectors you should be looking at?

Before doing any drastic modifying you really need to talk to an lpg converter (make sure he's a good one) to find out if your lpg system can be tuned to meet the new power requirements. If not then you will be wasting your money unless you go entirely petrol. For example the Prins VSI system that I have was fitted by a decent converter and to match my Abbott ECU upgrade (yes, I was still using them at that time and since found out I could have got a better upgrade for less money) to the lpg he made sure it had the larger injectors and then spent some time 'mapping' the diaphragm on the vaporiser/reducer so that it could follow the higher boost pressures in the manifold. This was vacuum mapping which the VSI is capable of. He also adjusted the lpg injector timings so that gas pressure was kept at the proper levels when flooring the accelerator as well as when cruising.

My car is also Y reg 2.0 lpt.

To summarise - you need to talk to a decent lpg converter man before you spend any cash. He should be able to help you draw up a list and tune the lpg system to match as you go along. I would say that is essential if you want to get good performance. My converter works on lpg conversions that go up to 350 bhp (not Saab) so he tends to know what to do.
 
#16 ·
Thanks Pugwash. My LPG fitter (CLS Dual Fuel in Durham) tells me that my SAAB is fitted with a BRS system with injectors that can handle up to 400hp. they can do a full remap across allpoints you stated so I am a happy chap. They even claim to have had a Mitsubishi Evo pushing out more hp on gas than on petrol. I'll belive that when I see it though.

Aero turbo is looking more likely at the moment. I am uneasy putting my trust in a T17 Garrett, no matter how modded it is...
 
#18 ·
Thanks Pugwash. My LPG fitter (CLS Dual Fuel in Durham) tells me that my SAAB is fitted with a BRS system with injectors that can handle up to 400hp. they can do a full remap across allpoints you stated so I am a happy chap. They even claim to have had a Mitsubishi Evo pushing out more hp on gas than on petrol. I'll belive that when I see it though.[/b]
That's pleasing to hear as the conversion company is the point where so many lpg systems appear to let the driver down. Yours obviously knows what he is doing and, just as importantly, enjoys tuning such sytems as opposed to 'box fitting' that so many others do.

I wish you luck with your performance increases and look forward to reading about the results.
 
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