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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am planning an LPG conversion to my (ex noisy tappits)2.3 with 166k miles.

I have compresion tested the engine and the comptresion is good (i think) at 10 bar in number 1, and 11 bar in all other pots. I think this will balence out when engine is flushed and oil change.

I have been reading masses of info on LPG its all a bit confusing.

Anyone with experiance of LPG conversions?
 

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Gassy's your man on this subject, but I would question your reasoning doing this on a 166K car???

If you're doing 20K per annum then you may recoup the installation costs only of about £2000 over 18 months or so by which time you may have done nearly 200K miles, not that this is unheard of. It just depends on how long you anticipate a) keeping the car and B) how long it will last.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I have had 2 900's (1 Tubo & 1 Carb) go to over 200k and 2 9000 Turbos go to 225K with no engine problems at all! Gearbox, Clutch, Heaters & pulling a car in two! killed the rest not the engine. Last year driving all over Europe in a 9000t with 210+K (did about 10K over 6 months)
Averaged 35Mpg crusing at 80 to 110 on the Autoban!

I have had the emissions tested and Co is 0.035% HC is allowed to be 1200PPm and it's currently 35 ppm so the engine has little to no wear and (noisy tappets and possible timing chain aside) I expect to have more problems with the bodywork than anything else. I intend to keep the car for 2 to 3 years or untill it dies, as I do 35K a year it should then be in the 250K area.

Active 8 Oil aditive followed by Slik 50 gives about 4 Mpg overall and greatly reduces MPG at higher speeds!

Saw an "H" reg 900t the other day with 270k (clutch failed on motorway due to bank holiday sit still)

Would like to get 300k on an engine before having to have the head off.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Car is a 2.3 injection with Di ignition no Turbo Sniff sniff.
Have to get son through driving test and this car is only £150 a year more to insure with him driving than a Rover 214! which he cannot drive as he has size 11 feet!
Getting a good set of URLs as I look for information on LPG.

Ever tried using on-line Translations services??
Found a wonderful Italian site but no English option so used Alta Vista Babel fish, with the following result...

"The motor control is left therefore the telephone exchange benzine while to the telephone exchange gas the task is entrusted to convert the commandos before generates you from for the injectors the benzine,"

Well I sort of get the idea..

I look forward to Gassy's experiences, and yes fool that I am I intend trying to fit it my self.. so you should get plenty of laughs at my expense!
 

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As I saied in my post in your other topic about followers, I run on LPG to, with no big troubles too.
What kind of kit are getting? injection or diffuser? I believe that, since the inj one works better but still isn't perfect, and since your car isn't that young no more, and since it's not a turbo that is a bit more troublesome than N/A, a cheaper diffuser kit could be the best choice IMHO. Just keep, as Leon saied, plugs, wires and distributor in good shape (my wires and distributors have never been changed anyway, and I change plugs at 15000km). Remember that LPG wears plugs more than petrol.
I average between 7.5 and 9km/litre with my '87 turbo, I don't know how many litres an imperial gallon is but you can do the math yourself.
I installed a little LPG tank, in the spare wheel place. About 40 litres capacity, 320-350km autonomy. I didn't wanted the big tank, since I wanted to fold down the rear seats and LPg avaiability in Italy is decent, so I don't have much problems with my autonomy. I had to put a pair of wooden sticks under the spare wheel cover, because the tank was too high and the cover laied on the tank, wich is not allowed by the law.
For those who knows, how is the LPG avaiability across Europe? I'm planning a european trip for this summer...
BillA, I'm italian and I can try to translate that site for you, just give me the URL. I'll post it here.
I can't recall any other info about it now, it's late and I go to sleep. If I'll have something more to post, I'll put it here.
HTH so far.
 

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Originally posted by BillA:
[qb]"The motor control is left therefore the telephone exchange benzine while to the telephone exchange gas the task is entrusted to convert the commandos before generates you from for the injectors the benzine,"

[/qb][/b]
A telephone exchange is also known as a switch if that helps? Maybe it means switch or something
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Stefano, Ref: LPG across europe. Lived in Belgium and central Germany last year, LPG is avalable everywhere better than in the UK below is my experiance though I was running on Petrol so might have missed some sites.
France, Belgium, Germany, Czech Repubilic good avalability, Nederlands (Holland) Fantastic! most stations seemed to offer LPG nice and cheap too!

The URL for the LPG site is http://www.landi.it

Thinking of an injection kit but open to advice.
 

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Did you want me to transate the whole site!?

This is what I think might interesrt you. As far as I've seen, Landi produces three kind od kits. Let's see them.

Kit 1
SE 81 SIC or SE 81 and Lambda Control System V05
http://www.landi.it/prodotti/scheda_sistema_gpl04.html

Translation:

The iquide LPG leaves the tank through the miltivalve (it's for refueling too) and heads to the engine compartment through a security solenoid which opens only when the engine is on and the switch is turned on LPG.
In the engine compartment there's the pressure reducer, where the LPG becomes a gas. Then the gas reaches the diffuser on the intake, where air and gas merge according to the engine load, which is the intake vacuum.
The stechiometric ratio is mantained by LCS-V05 ECU, which acts according to O2 sensor readings, via a mechanical linear actuator. This garanties the best performances, economies and emissions.
The LCS-A/1 lets the car start only on petrol, with automatic LPG switch, and allows the driver to switch from on fuel to the other by a simple in-dash switch, showing the LPG level too.
While engine works on LPG, the electronic injectors emulator or the excluding injector wiring breaks the petrol flow, and during petrol mode the LPG is stopped by solenoids.

Kit 2

LPG system with SE 81 Step Motor reducer and Lambda Control System /2
http://www.landi.it/prodotti/scheda_sistema_gpl05.html

Translation:

It's very similar to the previous kit, it just has an enhanced lambda control ECU wich allows even better emissions and economies. It has two step motors on the pressure reducer, driven by the Lambda controller, wich control the air/gas ratio: one for little flows, like at idle or low loads, one for the high flows, typical of high revs and loads. It compensates and eliminates the drop of revs due to A/C engaging or use of power steering.


Kit 3
LANDIRENZO IGSystem
http://www.landi.it/prodotti/scheda_sistema_gpl06.html

Translation:

The continue flow injection system IGSystem allows LPG conversions for catalyzed engines with O2 sensors. The LPG comes from the tank, passes through the pressure reducer-vaporizer (riduttore) and feeds, with known temp and pressure, the dispenser (dosatore), wich, according to the IGSystem ECU, feeds the distributor. The distributor purpose is to stabilize the pressure after the dispenser. Four hoses leave from the distributor and feed the four nozzles, which are mounted on the intake manifold.
The LPG pressure raises, by the ECU and the dispenser, according to the engine load, and not wich the intake vacuum, so the system is quicker to react to load changes.
The ECU map is bi-dimensional, MAP (absolute intake pressure) and revs are the parameters taken in consideration to determine the amount of gas to put in. The amound of gas is varied by real working conditions in order to keep unmodified performances and emissions during use and mechanical wear. The ECU has other funcions too, like O2 sensor management, enrichment during accelerations and deceleration cut-off.
The ECU manages the fuel quantity in dash indication, fuel-gas switch, rev limiter, security cut-off and so on.
During installation it is possible to connect a laptop or a palmar through a serial port, to test the system and to set the main parameters.

Kit 4
LANDIRENZO OMEGAS
http://www.landi.it/prodotti/scheda_sistema_gpl07.html

Translation:
This is a sequential Phased injection system, which is part of the new generation of conversion kits. The ECU is kept active, and it has emulating impedances instead
of the fues injectiors connected so the Landi ECU can see the original ECU's injection times and use them as a base to decide the LPG injection times. The the engine control is still in the original ECU, the Landi ECU has just to convert the fuel injectors ECU outputs into LPG injectors outputs. The Landi ECU is phased, in order to inject in the same cylinder the original ECU has decided to.
This kit is poorly intrusive in the car and leaves all the secondary funcions of the ECU (air fuel ratio management, A/C compressor engaging, idle control, cut off, EGR, purge canister, rev limiter, electrical loads managing, ecc...)
The injection times conversion is based on some parameters, such as: gas pressure in the injectors rail, gas temp, water temp, engine revs and battery voltage.


I really hope this can help you, (this job is worth a 5stars rating, isn't it?) what I learnt translating this is that the latter kit presented must be a real "beast", something that will work very good, but I don't know how muck it would cost: probably in the 1500£ zone, I don't think it's convenient spendig such money on such an old car. Just do a cpuple of math and discover how many miles you'll have to do to compensate the kit expense, the higher the kit price, the higher the mileage. Then, considering your annual mileage, predict how many years you'll need to turn your accounts into black. Then think of how many miles and years you can get from your car.
I paied my kit in less than 20000 km, one year more or less. I did it because the car had only 125000km, even if it had 12 years, ans because I knew that I could not afford another car for a bit of time, so I had to keep the car for long.
My advice is the kit no. 2, my mother has it on her FIat Punto, has done 85000km with it and, after installed, she really could forget she had it: it just needed LPG, but no screw had to be touched in four years.
The biggest trouble that can happen with a LPG kit is, apart the backfire, a tank of dirt LPG, that can make the reducer well no more. It has to be cleaned after, and it can heppen with any kind of kit.
One thing I forgot in my last post: I actually have a recurrent problem inwinter, when I push very hard the car seems to run out of LPG, it simply can't reach the engine from the tank. The solution is very easy and cheap: a blast of compressed air in the tank, it raises the tank pressure and the LPG is more in the mood to flow. It works until you really run out of LPG, in this case the air goes out of the tank and the problem comes back again. But solving is easy.

Is the refueling gun the same in all Europe, or do I need an adapter to fill up my Italian LPG tank in a French, or German, or English fuel station?
 

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Now I know who did it! Thanks, /john. And thanks to you too, BillJ. Now I just have to find out who the other was...
I still have to understand what member rating means, is it just a sign of thanking and appreciation or is it something else?

BillA, I realized just now that I think I didn't found the part you tried to transalte with AltaVista, if you're still interested please just ask.

Did you decided something yet? I'm curious to know what you'll install in your car, and how it works. Power delivery on LPG in my car is much smoother than on petrol, and throttle response is "creamy". Maybe it's due to the diffuser (I think its correct name is mixer), that a actually a chocking in the intake , that thethrottle isn't no more that influent in setting the intake vacuum. Some people could say "poor feeling between throttle and engine", and "slow response to throttle movements", but I just call it "eleimination of unuseful quickness in the response". The turbo lag does not get worse, and max power isn't affected: so if you want the hp, just floor it and feel you back sinking into your (leather?) backrest. The
factor is still there, maybe enhanced.
 

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Had my '92 CDXS gassed in 1999 at 96k, now on 144k, averages 24 mpg - works out at under 7 pence per mile.

The kit cost £1400 and is an 85 litre tank which fits easily between the wheel arches and still leaves loads of room.

Range of 350 miles plus.

For standard injection the cheaper (non multi point) kits work fine. If you want the slightly better mpg of the multi point kit - you pay the higher kit / installation price.

Things to bear in mind, gas usually drops your mpg by 10% as there's fewer calories per litre and the tank capacity is also 10% less than 85 litres for safety reasons.

All in all - couldnt go back to paying 12 pence per mile !
 

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As you've not got a turbo bill, and your fitting it yourself, I'd personally use the simpilst possible system..

open loop venturi design, couldn't be easier to fit, and cheap too!

You simply do not need the hassle of injection without turbo..
I had venturi desgin on my old 406, worked a treat for 24,000miles, til I bought my 9-5...
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Wow! Stefano Thank you very much!
I did not mean for you to translate the whole site! I was very tired when I did the posting of the URL and forgot to mention that I would accept your opinion on the best system rather than full translation.

I think the Whole Saabscene will be grateful to you as the information is very good Thanks again.

Yes I think the simple diffuser system is the easiest to install. However I like the idea of the new system which effectively uses my ECU just replaces Petrol for LPG and changes the timing etc.. Automatically.

Could be very nice just need to find out how intrusive the LPG injectors might be. Think I might have to remove inlet manifold to drill and tap for LPG injectors not sure yet, will keep you posted.

Thanks to all for comments very useful.

Stefano if you make it to the UK a Pint (560ml) of beer is waiting for you
 
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