[KevinReader]

Hi, Guys my old motor is on its last legs again, so I have reappeared after a long absence.

I never did get the #6 PVC change done and it sems to have come back to bite. Based on the behavour of oil light it seems like a case for doing the Sump Drop and the final PCV update. I've been reviewing the more recent discussions from when I last visited the subject in detail (probably late 2007 or earlier).

I hoping for a reply to two to check I'm going in the right direction. Also we are a one car household so its hard to go and get something if I'm not prepared. Mine's a 04/1999T 9-5 SE 2.3t so part numbers match this I think.

For the Sump Clean key points seem to be:

1. Loctite 518 to seal it back on (cheaper per ml than the saab packaged version).
2. Oven cleaner to get any bad gunk off.
3. O-ring for oil pickup tube (91 38 009).
4. Uncouple Exhaust downpipe
5. 80% release subframe instead of forcing engine/gearbox aside.

This was amazing to review as it always used to be lever engine or jack gearbox. The consensus appears to be drop/lever subframe instead. Am I reading it right?

For the PCV change it seems a good idea to replace the 3 hoses not in the upgrade kit:

1. Vent Kit (55 561 200)
2. 3 Hoses (55 560 445, 55 560 463, 93 999 73)

This should then be all the oil hoses done I think. Are there any others? Should I worry about anything else such as vacuum hoses?


For the Oil Change:

1. Shell Helix Ultra 5w40 Fully Synth as car has had a poor life. (Alternative to the 5w30 saab, gm, mobil1 recommended for tighter engines).
2. Oil Filter (93 186 554)
3. Plug and Washer (91 329 29, 91 329 37)

To extend the clean:

1. degunk bottom of engine while exposed
2. degunk inside rocker cover
3. rocker cover gasket to reseal (88 220 41)
4. clean out turbo hose?
5. new o-rings to refit turbo hose?
6. have seen mention of cleaning the intercooler - don't know if dealer did this when it had its previous 2 turbos.

Questions:

1. My general questions above after the sump/pcv jobs.....
2. Is it useful to extend the clean as much as possible? It is probably a sad engine....
3. I am not (yet) clear which turbo hose(s) to clean and what o-rings that needs to refit.
4. In terms of cleaning the top/bottom of the engine is there anything best used for this?
5. Will anything remove varnish if I have any (and does it matter anyway)?
6. I dare not pre-flush the engine as the current behavour suggests a bad sump screen already. Would I do better to refill now with the cheapest ACEA/A3 full synth I can find and then add a rapid flush in say 3k miles and repeat the sump drop? Or what?
7. Any additives/flushes recommended for either a (delayed) flush & second sump drop, or to get the engine cleaner (say of varnish) over time?

Sorry if it should all be clearer to me, but there are so many threads, posts & opinions here and in other forums I feel the need to ask to check what I am (not) understanding.

Thanks.

 

[mark e]

Somebody who's actually done it themsleves may correct me on this but I don't believe you need to do anything with the subframe on the 9-5. I have however done a 9-3 T7 and that does need subframe loosening and/or engine block lifting up.

So, for the 9-5 it shoud be just a case of remove the front exhaust section. Don't fanny about with relasing, just get the thing well out of the way. You also can't inadvertenetly strain the flexi section like this.

Regarding the rest of your points:

I wouldn't go mad with the clean. Inside the rocker cover may be worth it but unless there are very heavy deposits (which I doubt to be honest), don't bother with the bottom of the engine.

Prior to draining, I would use a good engine flush e.g. Forte., but only once it is warm and idling.

Paint brush cleaner is very good for shifting the deposits inside the sump and cam cover. Cheap too.

 

[KevinReader]

Hmm. The older threads didn't do anything to the subframe (as I recall) but sometimes had a fight with the other bits getting in the way. The more recent stuff seems to release the subframe to avoid those struggles. It might all depend on model years and gearbox type I suppose?

I am scared to run a flush as things have been looking iffy, (warm and idling is dodgy) so I'm leaning to a short oil change (after running fully synth for say 3k) and flush on that 2nd change. I might even drop the sump again after the flush (makes more sense than before one!)

Our american comrades seem to use lots of products we can't even get, regardless of how advisable they are. The auto-rx that gets mentioned seems to be available now.

 

[paolo]

Ive done a couple of sump drops and i'd say jack the gearbox - it takes 20 seconds to jack it up a little so you can wiggle the sump back on, far easier than trying to loosen subframe.

You will need to drop the exhaust from the turbo end (3 bolts) + the exhaust stay (2 bolts), but as Mark E has said, dropping the whole thing makes it easier (although you may have to literally drop the whole exhaust as Id imagine getting the bolts out from the downpipe to the flexi (either side of) will be very difficult due to rust.

You are certainly right to think about taking out and running compressed air through the oil inlet pipe after a good soak in cleaner. This pipe is pretty thin and gets gunked up with badly sludge engines hence repeated turbo failure.

Id leave the top end alone to be honest, although there may be some mileage in making sure the internal metal PCV tubes are free of gunk. If you are going to blow these through, do it before the sump drop.

Id also not bother trying to clean up the engine. You'll never get it completely clean and you'll start to loosen crud everywhere.

Best of luck
P

 

[mark e]

As long as the engine is warm, then I really can't see any harm coming from putting a flush in as long as you're not putting it under load. It will do a really good job of loosening up the crud that you want to get rid of in the sump. The supply to all critical parts is after all filtered by the strainer. They might get a little less than they woudl want at full load but at idle i can't see it beign a problem- one of the main purposes of oil is to help cool but if you're not doing any work with the enigne there's very little cooling to be done.

 

[robertson.a]

If it were me...I would be doing a pre-flush. The oil then goes really thin and falls off parts much better. When you take off the sump any gunk will then appear on the sump floor and its shelf. The oil pump will thank you for it too and all the internals will be just that bit cleaner.

Doing a double change is a great idea and worked well for me. My lpt is now running beautifully on its third batch of post drop synthetic 5W40, and it is getting better with each change, I think. Economy is certainly much better and with more zip.

You could even get away with an elcheapo basic oil for the first flush change. There is no real issue with mixing the oil, given you are dropping it out anyway. Pop in another batch of preflush at that point too.
Your oil pressure sender switch is most likely gone as well. They degrade quickly after 7 years or so. Don't trust it.

I would take off the rocker cover, but as P and M have said don't go overboard getting it spotless. Cleaning the innards of the motor with a parts cleaning brush and a spray degreaser may help but you will get really dirty doing it. You won't get the oil galleries clean doing that but you will feel better about it.
Then again I have seen awful shots of solid gunk like vegemite (sic) in the timing chain area. Hope that it is not that bad.

I ended up using Wynne's flush, which was great but now I am using LiquiMoly which I think does a better job and is German TUV tested.

It is your car, BTW and you need to feel that you have given it a new lease of life in all of this, so do what your instinct says.

Take some photos so we can all admire your handiwork and inspire others to get grubby.

God luck with it.

 

[mark e]

I forgot- for a thorough change, drop the pipes off the oil cooler as well and drain that. It holds around half a litre IIRC.

 

[robertson.a]

Not sure God has much to do with SAAB at the moment...sorry about that last one, missed it.

 

[KevinReader]

I forgot- for a thorough change, drop the pipes off the oil cooler as well and drain that. It holds around half a litre IIRC.[/b]

That's the bit people sometimes call the intercooler isn't it? Which gets crud from a turbo failure.

Does it need to be recharged with extra oil - I'll check the WIS and Haynes but any advice appreciated.

 

[KevinReader]

Ive done a couple of sump drops and i'd say jack the gearbox - it takes 20 seconds to jack it up a little so you can wiggle the sump back on, far easier than trying to loosen subframe.

You will need to drop the exhaust from the turbo end (3 bolts) + the exhaust stay (2 bolts), but as Mark E has said, dropping the whole thing makes it easier (although you may have to literally drop the whole exhaust as Id imagine getting the bolts out from the downpipe to the flexi (either side of) will be very difficult due to rust.

You are certainly right to think about taking out and running compressed air through the oil inlet pipe after a good soak in cleaner. This pipe is pretty thin and gets gunked up with badly sludge engines hence repeated turbo failure.

Id leave the top end alone to be honest, although there may be some mileage in making sure the internal metal PCV tubes are free of gunk. If you are going to blow these through, do it before the sump drop.

Id also not bother trying to clean up the engine. You'll never get it completely clean and you'll start to loosen crud everywhere.

Best of luck
P[/b]

Thanks paolo. A couple of the threads dropped the exhaust off the middle hangers. Like I said it was a bit weird how the focus changed from jacking the gearbox to dropping the subframe over the threads of the past couple of years. Maybe I'll start with the gearbox and remember the alternative if its too hard getting the sump back in. I will definitely dry run that bit so I can keep the sealant intact on the real run.

Will definitely do the oil inlet then. That has o-rings on it, doesn't it?

Where do you guys get the compressed air when at home?

 

[KevinReader]

As long as the engine is warm, then I really can't see any harm coming from putting a flush in as long as you're not putting it under load. It will do a really good job of loosening up the crud that you want to get rid of in the sump. The supply to all critical parts is after all filtered by the strainer. They might get a little less than they woudl want at full load but at idle i can't see it beign a problem- one of the main purposes of oil is to help cool but if you're not doing any work with the enigne there's very little cooling to be done.[/b]

The oil light started to flash at warm+idle so I've been inclined to defer the flush. I suppose I could throw some in and stop if the light comes on but that feels a bit dicey and could be a waste if its not in there long enough.

As I suspect things are fairly bad I reckon I may be better at doing it on a second oil change in a few weeks but I'd want to rerun the sump off as I'd worry about crud from elsewhere going back to the sump.

 

[KevinReader]

If it were me...I would be doing a pre-flush.
....
Doing a double change is a great idea and worked well for me.
....

You could even get away with an elcheapo basic oil for the first flush change. There is no real issue with mixing the oil, given you are dropping it out anyway. Pop in another batch of preflush at that point too.
Your oil pressure sender switch is most likely gone as well. They degrade quickly after 7 years or so. Don't trust it.

I would take off the rocker cover, but as P and M have said don't go overboard getting it spotless. Cleaning the innards of the motor with a parts cleaning brush and a spray degreaser may help but you will get really dirty doing it. You won't get the oil galleries clean doing that but you will feel better about it.
Then again I have seen awful shots of solid gunk like vegemite (sic) in the timing chain area. Hope that it is not that bad.

I ended up using Wynne's flush, which was great but now I am using LiquiMoly which I think does a better job and is German TUV tested.[/b]

Thanks for the advice aus715. So what you suggest is:
Add Preflush, do oil change (cheap semi) and filter and new oil pressure sender.
But how long before this bit...
Add Preflush, drain, PCV fix, sump drop, clean pipes, clean rockers too.

The thing is I think things may be bad and I'm no longer sure about defering the sump drop, but if I've done the drop & pipes I wouldn't want to use cheapo oil as it might degrade them. When you are unsure about the state of the engine its hard to know what's best. In my case I might end up doing the double change almost back to back. Is that what you meant/expected?

 

[mark e]

That's the bit people sometimes call the intercooler isn't it? Which gets crud from a turbo failure.[/b]

No, the intercooler cools the air that has been compressed by the tubro prior to it going into the engine.

The oil cooler is about 2ft long, 3" high and 2" deep and sits right at the front and at the bottom of the radiator stack:

The total volume of the oil system is 5.4 litres as opposed to the service volume of 4 litres

 

[KevinReader]

No, the intercooler cools the air that has been compressed by the tubro prior to it going into the engine.

The oil cooler is about 2ft long, 3" high and 2" deep and sits right at the front and at the bottom of the radiator stack:

The total volume of the oil system is 5.4 litres as opposed to the service volume of 4 litres[/b]

Thanks Mark, great info and a picture too. Just what scared people need to help them. I suspect a lot of posts I've read have meant this oil cooler rather than the intercooler then! I can check my Haynes later, but do you have to prefill the intercooler when you put it back on or just put more into the engine? I'm assuming this is the one that accumulates turbo bearing bits too!

Clearly need to buy enough oil to refill the lot.

 

[KevinReader]

Additional thoughts/questions:

1. Votes please for a UK available brand of engine flush... Forte, Wynne's, LiquiMoly.
   A lot of people have mentioned Wynne's, aus715 said LiquiMoly, and Forte seems very available.
2. Votes please for a UK available brand of ongoing engine treatment... Forte, Auto-RX, or what.
3. Does the oil pressure sender need a washer/ring/seal (not near my manuals at the moment) and how hard is it to change? Found a post that said it was hard to get to.

 

[mark e]

It is the intercooler that "gathers" bits of turbo debris when they let go.

No special precautions are needed after draining the oil cooler except to note that the stat for it doesn't open fully until above 105 deg C. If you try to pre-fill it things will get messy! After refilling, check the level after the engine has been running for about 5 miutes and top up as necessary.

Forte flush is the most commonly used I've seen at garages. Wynne's is easily availabel at Halfords. I've used both. I don't think it makes a huge difference- the important thing is just that you use any.

The oil pressure switch doesn't have any glands/washers/o-rings. It's part way up the back of the block. Might not be too hard to get at with the exhaust out of the way.

 

[KevinReader]

...
You are certainly right to think about taking out and running compressed air through the oil inlet pipe after a good soak in cleaner. This pipe is pretty thin and gets gunked up with badly sludge engines hence repeated turbo failure.
...[/b]

Am I correct in thinking this is the pipe from the Oil Filter Adapter to the turbo? Item #8 on the EPC, part #91 72 149.

I am assuming it should be reassembled with new gasket/seals which for my engine seem to be at the filter end gasket 81 24 141, seal 4161162 and at the turbo end 2 x gasket 81 24 133. (Weirdly/Worryingly it lists a different first gasket for the B235R engine. ) Do I need new seals/gaskets?

 

[KevinReader]

No special precautions are needed after draining the oil cooler except to note that the stat for it doesn't open fully until above 105 deg C. If you try to pre-fill it things will get messy! After refilling, check the level after the engine has been running for about 5 miutes and top up as necessary.[/b]

Do you know if I need to fit new O-Rings on the oil cooler pipes, especially given their age?

They appear to be #46 85 244 at each end of each pipe.

If I find gunk in the cooler's pipes I'm assuming it would be sensible to remove them and try and flush them through?

 

[robertson.a]

A cheap oil will not do any damage to the engine at all in this process. It would really be considered part of the 'double flush regime'.

I would put in the pre flush, drive around gently for 15-20 mins, no revs over 2500 and drop the oil when warm (not hot). Don't even do the filter at this point. Put in the cheap semi synthetic 5w30 thin oil, drive around normally for an hour on family pickup duties, no high revs as such. Rent some small children if you don't have them. Then go back home, put in the second preflush, and let it idle for 15 minutes. Let it cool down a bit, drop the oil and take off the old filter.

Now let it cool completely and drop the sump. Take photos so we can all see how bad it was. Clean it all up, turbo feed pipe too, remount sump (in daylight!), re-oil with good quality 5W40 FS, new SAAB black filter and fill her up. Check level after a 10 minute run.

The sender switch is important and is not worth overlooking.

You may be surprised at how bad it is inside but these engines are 'tough as nails' when they get good oil flow and this process should work a treat. The timing chain sprockets and guide rails may be worn a bit but this is not a real issue after you do the flush out. They will work better than before even if a little 'chainy'.

5000miles later do an oil preflush and change as per normal. It will get even better.

Doing the PCV latest kit is a must do and will add an hour to a 4 hour job.

 

[KevinReader]

Thanks for the advice aus715.

I had not been certain that a double flush could be done in such short order; I'd assumed it needed a bit more mileage. With my engine getting a bit sad I was loath to run it any further than a beneficial minimum. I'll do as you suggest but cut the first flush run short if the oil light starts to complain again, which will only waste a bottle of flush. I will swap the filter on the first flush too, as mine has been there a while and they seem pretty cheap at the moment (below £3).

Another weird discovery is that the GM branded 5w30 fully synth has been as low as £20/5L from the right source and £46 from the wrong! I think it depends if they source it as saab or vauxhall!?!?! :crazy: With my luck it will have gone back up everywhere.

If you've seen my other post in the thread - am I right about which pipe is the turbo oil feed?
Do you think I will need to replace the gaskets/seals on that pipe if I take it off?

I want to get everything I might reasonably need in beforehand to avoid delay and difficulty. The nearest dealer is a replaced & dumbed down vauxhall one (Toomies), and mail order would be mad & slow for £5 worth of (non-stock) seals. Do you think its sensible to get them beforehand? Sorry to ask - my confidence is playing up a bit. I am the sort that's likely to get stuck because of the lack of a new £1 seal!

I've been trying to work out - just for understanding - what each of the other turbo pipes is for. There seem to other banjo-pipes similar to the main oil feed (items 18 & 19 in the catalog), and its unclear to me what forms the oil return from the turbo. I do realise the latter (where ever it is!) couldn't be removed without re-priming the turbo oil.