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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Looking at buying a 9000i 2.3 H reg with 160k miles.

Intend fitting LPG!

Car is fine but for usual 9000 rot on doors.

However engine has very noisy hydralic cams which do not shut up with increase revs.

Thinking of relief valve in timing cover could be sticking?

Current owner is SAAB mecanic says had no problem with car but resently bought Carlsson so 9000i 2.3 been sitting a few weeks.

Any ideas? or leave well alone?
 

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My Carlsson had noisey tappets (as they were referred to) I believe this is the problem your describing. I never got them done, most honest garages won't recommend replacing them as there is a lot of labour involved and Saab engines will generally run OK whilst rattling away like old diesels.

If the car needs new chains (timing/balance) or any other work which requires the head to come off, it would be an idea to consider having the tappets replaced then.

I'm sure there will be other opinions conflicting with mine.
 

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Hydraulic cam followers are about 20 euros each from a dealer, or you can try to clan them. I let an engine shop clean them, I spent 30 euros for all 16 and now they work ok. I did it while I was changing the head gasket, but removing them isn't a bad job: remove valve cover, open timing chain, remove the eight "things" (I don't remind their english name) that hold the camshafts (don't swap them! they are numbered), remove the camshafts and you'll have the cam followers in your hand. One hour job at worst.

Anyway, how long did you had the car on before shutting it, if the car has been sitting for wheeks it can take up to a few minuts to fill up again all the followers and to shut off that noise.

And, of course, all in all, the engine will be more noisy with noisy followers, but it works well the same, and it doesn't risk to get damaged to run in this condition, in my experience (I run 50k km with noisy followers, when I opened the engine and looked to the head there was no noticeable damage).

Hope this helps.
 

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Oh, I forgot: I have LPG on my '87 turbo, if you think I can know something useful to you just ask.
My kit is the old kind, the one with pressure reducer and vaporizer: if you can go for an injection kit, especially if you have a turbo.
 

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Probably the chain, doesn't sound like your old ford X-flow chain rattle.

My 88 9000i is the same and I am in no rush to change it.

I whipped my cam cover off and had a gander, they followers were all fine (all were pumped up to where they are meant to be) I also cleaned out the blocked cam spray bars whilst I was there. Just pops out and pulls apart.

If it is the followers take them out and give them a clean, be as well doing the chain though while you are there.

chris
 

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they followers were all fine (all were pumped up to where they are meant to be[/b]
You should be able to put something at least 1mm thick between the cam and the follower, when the valve is supposed to b closed, if the car has been sitting for more than one day.
The problem in my car wasn't that the followers couldn't pump enough, it was that they didn't de-inflate, so they remained fully long, so the cam always pushed against it, so the valve could not close perfectly. The problem was that the previous owner(s?) didn't changed the oil often enough, so the oli clogged the little oil passages in the followers.


But, I repeat, the only issues you can have running with noisy cam followers are the noise and that the valves don't close well, wich means a slight decrease in performances (in mine it was barely noticeable after I did the job, I wasn't complaining about it before), and a potential sooner valve seats wear (I bought with the noisy followers, did 60k km on LPG which should be more aggressive towards valve seats, then opened the head: the seats seemed almost new

Hope this makes sense, I'm not too good in explaining these things, even if I would.

Hope this helps.
 

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When the valve is closed and the heel of the cam is above the lifter there should be zero gap (thats why they are reffered to as zero lash followers) even after standing for a while.

You should be able to spin the tappets pretty easily at this point. If you can't of the tappets have collapsed then you have problems.

Out of intrest how much play is meant to be in the chain? Mine seems excessive.

Chris
 

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 When the valve is closed and the heel of the cam is above the lifter there should be zero gap (thats why they are reffered to as zero lash followers) even after standing for a while.[/b]
I thoght that after a few day that the car has been sitting, the hydraulic followers go off of oil, and there's a certain play between cam and valve. Only a weack spring keeps the contact. This play is the cause for the head to be noisy at startup, after a few seconds (maybe a minute) the followers fill up and the noise goes away.
So, if the oil can go out of the follower as it should, and as it wasn't used to do in my car, it should be possible to put something 1mm thick ( a small screwdriver, for example) under the cam, when the valve is supposed to be closed of course.
 

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Then again it depends on your oil. Really thin stuff will drain out after a day or so an will allow it drop a bit bit.

They should hold the oil in them for a good while though.

The plunger may be worn and allowing oil to seep out though as well though so that won't help much.

They shoudl stay pumped up for a while though.

Anyway as long as the tappet noise goes after a few seconds they are fine.

Chris
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I have an old 9000 2.0 Turbo which has done 225K miles!

The engine is fine but timing chain could do with replacing and the tappets are noisy for about 30 seconds after starting the engine if left standing for a week or 2.

The rest of the car is scrap (clutch, Clutch Master cylinder, heater, wheel bearing etc..) otherwise goes like stink!

The car I am looking at was running for about 5 min and there was no sign of the tappets shutting up.

I know I can replace tappets without removing head, nice to know it’s not a difficult job though.

Thanks for all welcomes, it’s great to find somewhere to get impartial advice rather than asking a garage where they only want to charge loads of money!
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Stefano
I have looked at LPG systems in the UK and they are mostly Italian made! I did not think non-injected systems worked very well on Turbo's?

I am looking at installing the system my self as I am short of cash and the difference is about £1,000 or 1,500 eu if I get a gasrage to fit the system in the UK!

Just been quoted £1,400 + VAT = £1,645!!!!

I can buy all the bits for £450 INC VAT!
 

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they are mostly Italian made![/b]
This don't surprise me. Italy is where LPg began to be used for cars, as far as I know.

Injected kits are more reliable than my old generation, because they have less parts to break-get dirty. They minimize too the risk of backfire, because injection nozzles are closer to the engine than my diffuser.

Injected kits work better too, they are ECU controlled and they alway run stechiometric (sp?), have better idling, much better mileages and performances. I had to install a idle controller, because my idle was too instable and not reliable (I was used to brake with the foot on the gas), it costed 35 euros.

Performances for injection type kits are better mostly because old kits needs to be chocked (by a flat ring before the throttle plate, for example), so the engine can "suck" the LPG from the the pressure reducer, through the diffuser. This restriction in the intake causes a loss in performances, even when you run out of LPG and turn on petrol, because the restriction is still there. Injected kits don't have this restriction.

As for the price, I had my kit installed and approved by Transoprt Minister for about 780 euros, if my car was catalyzed I would have spent another 150 euros more or less.
Seems like over there the conversions are a bit pricey.
We need to have to kit written on the car's sheets, so we have to have an authorized installator to install it, to certify the job was done right. without this, pices would be even lower. I know that the installing job can be done in a day or two, calibration included, so 1000£ for the fitting seem a bit high to me too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Have bought the car! Tappits now quiet??? (wonder if it was short of oil?)
Anyway working fine small amount of rust to cure as the car is white and I have not found a good white paint on any car make they all suffer from rot far more than other colours in my experiance (Titanium Dioxide is very soft and slippy so paint binders cannot get a good hold on the pigment making the finished paint very soft and rubbs off easier than normal paints.

Anyway will start a new topic now re LPG conversion!

Thanks for all help and advice..

Regards
Bill A.
 
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