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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all,

Just wondering if anyone has put a 9-5 2.3 [turbo-linear or arc] turbo engine in a 9000? Does it bolt straight up to the 9000 transmission [1994 9000cs LPT]? Is it possible and is there any advantage to using a newer 9-5 turbo compared to the 9000 turbo (boost levels, responsivness etc?)?

Thanks
9000CST
 

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Not really a starter... you'd have to change the entire wiring loom and engine management system as well. They're mechanically different (B234 in 9000, B235 in 9-5) and the gearboxes are different too.

The B234 is a better, stronger engine than the B235, which has had problems with failing turbo units.

Or, in a word:

No.
 

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Hi 9000CST,

Is the car in question a 2.0 or 2.3LPT? If it's a 2.3LPT then all you need to do is a LPT to FPT conversion (pretty straightforward if you can get the parts) and then go for some uprated Trionic software to reap the rewards. Do a search on this or the performance forum to find more answers.

Best of luck.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
O.k. Thanks for the replies guys.

So the block from a B235 won't bolt up to a manual trans from a B234?

The failing turbo units is the reason I got the engine. It had the oil seperator rework done but the wrong oil was used and the results were not pretty. Took the rocker cover off and the sludge left a nice mould of the rocker cover! I was hoping to clean it up and use this block in my 9000 as the engine had only done 27,000kms.

Thanks,
9000CST
 

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Mark E, could you add more detail - I'm kind of curious. Exactly what is different on the 9-5 gearbox from the 9000. I know that the final gearing on the 9-5 reverted to the same as on the '91-'92 9000's (4.05:1) but the two gearboxes look, to these untrained eyes, to be almost identical. I don't see why the 9-5 engine couldn't bolt up to the 9000 transaxle, unless the bolt pattern and input shaft diameter changed as they did when Saab changed from the long-block B234's in '94.

Also, having transplanted a '98 B234R motor into a LH/Jetronic vehicle ('92), I can say with absolute certainty that the whole drivetrain, wiring harness, ECU, etc. can be swapped without much difficulty - as long as one is handy with a soldering iron and can read electrical schematics, it can be done in a day. The engine that's in my '94 Aero (see my homepage - http://homepage.mac.com/robertlavergne/Menu1.html), was previously installed in a '92 CC.

I'm interested in this question because I have often thought of using the 5 speed automatics from the B235's on the B234's.
 

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Originally posted by 9000CST:
[qb]O.k. Thanks for the replies guys.

So the block from a B235 won't bolt up to a manual trans from a B234?[/qb][/b]
Well I can only answer this question with another ... whats the problem with your B234 motor? If there's no problem, you've nothing to gain but plenty to lose by going for a B235 motor.
 

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The B235 engine is a pretty good engine. Because it's more advanced than the 234 then yes there have been problems. But there are even more 235's out there that with regular oil changes have not had problems. Half the problems have been caused by going over the oil change intervals.
 

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Originally posted by Leon [9-5 stg2]:
[qb]    QUOTE
Originally posted by Jason (Mr Torque-Steer):
[qb]  you've nothing to gain but plenty to lose by going for a B235 motor.           [/qb][/b]
Whats to loose?
A lighter engine? and factory 'approved' at 305bhp? [/qb][/b][/quote]Sorry Leon, everyone knows the earlier B23x's are stronger even if they are a bit lardy. The B235 was subject to costdown in a few key areas, for it's intended application the B234 was over-engineered and should on paper be more reliable.

Lets look at the evidence...

<ul type="square">
[*]9000 Aero Maptun Stage 5 340bhp on original camshafts and pistons
[*]9-5 Aero Maptun Stage 5 350bhp but requires new pistons and camshafts.
[/list]
I'm not saying 9000's are better than 9-5's, certainly in the handling stakes they suck compared to most other large cars, including the 9-5. I just don't see the point in dropping a 9-5 motor in a 9000 if the original unit is working OK.
 

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Originally posted by Jason (Mr Torque-Steer):
[qb] I just don't see the point in dropping a 9-5 motor in a 9000 if the original unit is working OK.        [/qb][/b]
Improved handling, with a lighter front end, a more responive motor, as it's lighter, lower inertia...
I believe that was one of the OP's prime questions?

I don't know how the ***5 engine gained a reputation for being a weak engine, but it's undeserved, after all it's the most powerful factory engine SAAB have put a warranty to.
 

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If the engine would fit in I wouldn't hesitate in putting a low mileage 235 engine in my car. You are knocking an engine that you don't live with. You only really see bad things put on bulletin boards about them cos the ones with no problems don't have anything to ask about the engine. Go into the 9-5,9-3 boards and put a question up and see how many people there have had serious engine problems.
 

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I give up! OK, I admit I'm basing my statement (an my beliefs) that the B234 is stronger than the B235 on stuff I've read on various Saab ethusiast sites and the Maptun tuning menu. I still stick to my guns on the following...

1) If it ain't broke ... don't fix it

2) You can take a 9000 Engine to 350bhp without removing the rocker cover ... correct?

Jase, signing off feeling slightly under fire and hoping some other 9000 supporters will back me up.
 

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Originally posted by Jason (Mr Torque-Steer):
[qb]I give up! OK, I admit I'm basing my statement (an my beliefs) that the B234 is stronger than the B235  [/qb][/b]
I think it boils down to the fact that the B235 is well engineered and the B234 is over engineered.
 

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2) You can take a 9000 Engine to 350bhp without removing the rocker cover ... correct? --- Mr Torque steer

What rocker cover? Saabs don't have rockers.

Before I defend the B235R ... I'd like to add the disclaimer that I DO NOT reccomend bothering to swap the engines. The B234R is a fine motor. No sense in upgrading to another engine which requires such heavy mods to adapt to.

That being said ... there's a lot of B235R bashing going on around here. Hoping to put it to a rest. Here are ten reasons the B235R is a more than adequately built motor, in a direct comparison between it and the B234R:

First: The B234R has never been shown to be mechanically stronger than the B235R in any way besides pistons. I won't argue that EITHER is stronger in any other way without more evidence than just MapTun's tuning stages.

Second: Everyone who drives a B235R says it's better, everyone who drives a B234R says it's better. C'mon guys, let's TRY not to be biased here.

Third: The B235R has camshafts that are worse for power. However, they are better for spoolup. This isn't a mechanical weakness ... and it should not be held against the engine. Remember that in stock form the B235R in the Viggen makes more power (or equal power in Europe, though the jury is out on this) despite weaker pistons and worse camshafts than any stock 9000 Aero I've seen on a dyno.

Fourth: Camshafts are cheaper than even a stage 1 upgrade from Speedparts, BSR, or MapTun ... so don't complain about them. I mean honestly, it's not THAT hard to change them on a DOHC engine.

Fifth: The B235R uses smaller ring lands because, like all modern engines, it's tightly emmissions regulated. The smaller ring lands are to reduce the trapped gasses around the piston that do not burn during combustion. Saab would be foolish to use pistons that are 500 hp capable on an engine that's only supposed to make about 250 hp. Especially if those pistons make it difficult to meet stringent emmissions laws.

Sixth: The T7 head flows better. You could port a T5 head, but then you could also port the T7 head and still flow better. Let's face it, it's easier to change the bad cams from the B235R than change the bad head from the B234R.

Seventh: Many many many engine advances were made between the design of the B234R and the B235R. None of us here have any justifiable reason to think the B235R is a cheaply built motor. It's certainly not inexpensive, and I assume there is reason for that. For evidence, just look at a couple things we DO know about the B235R: Nitrided piston pins, Nimonic exhaust valves ... I'm sure much more that we simply don't know about because we've never torn a B235R down before.

Eigth: The turbo may fail early. Either due to poorly changed oil, or bad design. However there are many cases when it has run for a long period just fine. When it IS running, it spools quicker than the B234R's turbo, and produces more power (in stock form) ... besides by the time you're replacing pistons you've long since replaced the turbo anyway.

Ninth: The B235R has not been around long enough to make any justified arguments towards longevity. I'm sure there were plenty of B234R's that blew up prematurely, but they've long since been forgotten due to the number that have not.

Tenth: I offer Vigge's dyno chart as an example of weak pistons being more myth than fact. 511 NM of torque, and 289 hp with just intake, exhaust, chip, and intercooler ... and without popping open the rocker cover. Without even the intercooler he was still very near those figures. Only like 7-8 less NM and a couple less hp. For those american types 511 NM is about 377 lb ft ...



Rant over.

Dubbya~
 

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Before I defend the B235R ... I'd like to add the disclaimer that I DO NOT reccomend bothering to swap the engines.[/b]
Well thats the key issue and we're agreed here.


Am I biased? I don't think so, I like all Saabs including Viggens and 9-5's, if I ever have the money I hope that I can own a 9-5 Aero before they've all got intergalactic mileages on the clock!
 

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Does it bolt straight up to the 9000 transmission - this is the question I'd like to hear a definitive answer to. If the 5 speed automatic could be coupled to the B234R, I would seriously consider buying another late model 9000 - a '97 or '98 - and do some moderate tuning (new intercooler, 3 exhaust, Maptun software) to bring the hp into the 275 range. I'd never sell my 5 speed manual, but it would be nice to have a second 9000 (now some of you will undoubtedly accuse me of trying to keep up with the Jones's, Bill, that is ) with a 5 speed slushbox that could handle more than ~230 ft-lbs of torque
 

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A brief further comment on B234 vs B235 before I (try to) answer Robert's point, as I seem to have started the debate
.

My grounds for saying the B234 engine (particularly the early ones) is "better" than the B235 is that I have been told that on a number of occasions by well respected tuners and experienced indy garages. I don't actually speak from any personal experience.

For most purposes it would seem that there's little to choose mechanically between their internals, however the acknowledged problems with failing turbos suggest that all is not right in the lubrication department in the 9-5 235 variant. Sure this can in part be offset if the car has had an oil/filter change every 6000 miles, but if you were buying a s/h engine I would say you will find very few that you can get this assurance on, unless it was very low mileage.

So, in saying the 234 is "better" option I'm basing it not just on the construction but also the likely condition for comparable mileage if bought s/h.

Back to "will it fit?"

One of the 9-5 guys will be able to help me here I hope. I'm pretty certain that the 9-5 ECU also needs to be "married" to the rest of the car, which would make life very difficult. It may be possible to use a 9000 T5 ECU with suitable adpatation and custom mapping. I dunno.

I don't know for definite about transmission mating Robert, but a number of apparently similar components have different part numbers e.g. the bell housing. Also, end cover plates are significantly different with the 9000 being cast to accommodate the gearbox mounting bush.
 
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