Throttle body butterfly postion

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Thread: Throttle body butterfly postion

  1. #1
    Saab Newbie Smig4373's Avatar
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    Throttle body butterfly postion

    Hello,had an intermitant problem with surging/up and down revs...cleaned throttle body yesterday,noted that when idling,the butterfly was in the fully open position..I'm guessing this is wrong,it didn't move at all when pedal depressed,ordered a working throttle body online,no cel,no limp mode..still decent mpg etc,just the intermitant surging,changed and /or cleaned MAP,MAF no dpf,egr blanked,cleaned vnt vanes,changed all vacuum and intercooler hoses,changed throttle pedal

    Is it likely to be throttle body or a communication error between ecu and throttle body...if it's communication error,what should I do next..no errors codes..

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  3. #2
    Saab Newbie Smig4373's Avatar
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    It's a 2005 1.9tid..150bhp

  4. #3
    Saab Newbie
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    Re: Throttle body butterfly postion

    hmmm... another very interesting thread. I have a similar issue on a 9-3 linear with 1.9 tid motor. Its throttle body is also in the wide open position which I thought odd, given that the engine was off at the time. I removed the throttle body and found that I could wind the butterfly closed, but it was under spring tension, when I let it go, the spring wound it back to wide open?? There's another thread here where they talk about tb cleaning and one comment by merve 84 was that the spring should wind the tb to the closed position, which sounds a lot more sensible. This engine went into full blown runaway and turning the key to off didn't stop it!! Same here also - no error codes.
    I take it that yours is drive by wire throttle also?
    Not the thread I'm looking for but this one is another butterfly problem.
    https://www.saabscene.com/forum/threa...tterfly-issues

    Ah, here's the thread I was looking for with merve84's comment [post #7]
    https://www.saabscene.com/forum/threa...ottle-Actuator
    Cheers, Rob
    Last edited by Pixels; 06-29-2017 at 12:01 PM.
    2008 9-3 Linear 1.9 tid manual convertible

  5. #4

    Re: Throttle body butterfly postion

    fully open makes no sense unless when the engine is switched on it energises a coil/motor and closes?

    Howeve,r that would be unusual as closed would be default position to prevent run away.
    Last edited by the zohan; 06-30-2017 at 03:45 AM.

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  6. #5
    Saabisti
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    Re: Throttle body butterfly postion

    At rest mine is fully open. (TTiD) mine failed the cogs stripped inside leaving it fully open.

    Apart from Opcom picking up a code the car ran very well with it stuck wide open.
    2010 93 Aero TTiD Manual

  7. #6

    Re: Throttle body butterfly postion

    Mines fully open when car is off .TID 150
    And my previous 120 TID was the same .
    Either I've got and had 2 9-3 s with funny throttle butterfly's or it's a defult Desing .
    Neo brothers brand new throttle body
    http://www.neobrothers.co.uk/throttl...sel-4987-p.asp
    Last edited by lizzard-t; 06-30-2017 at 07:32 AM.
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  8. #7
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    Re: Throttle body butterfly postion

    Quote Originally Posted by the zohan View Post
    fully open makes no sense unless when the engine is switched on it energises a coil/motor and closes?

    Howeve,r that would be unusual as closed would be default position to prevent run away.
    My thoughts exactly Zohan and thanks to everyone for contributing their thoughts and observations here!!
    Make no mistake, when the ignition key is turned off, the engine that it is connected to, must stop!! end of story, no excuses! Regardless of whether it is a petrol or diesel, running normally or in runaway [as can happen to diesel's] ignition off must achieve exactly that, the engine is prevented from igniting any fuel, petrol or oil [diesel] by either electric spark or compression.
    That the one throttle body i have looked at was spring loaded to wide open seems utterly bizarre!!
    2008 9-3 Linear 1.9 tid manual convertible

  9. #8
    Saabisti
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    Re: Throttle body butterfly postion

    As I understand it (and I`m probably completely wrong!), the throttle butterfly in a diesel is only used under very specific circumstances.

    My 2.2TiD doesn't even have one!

    I believe it's only used to provide engine braking and vacuum, the rest of the time it's wide open hence the default position being full-open. It is conceivable that it's fully closed when you turn the ignition off to assist the engine in stopping before springing back to wide open.


    Frank.

  10. #9
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    Re: Throttle body butterfly postion

    Hi Captain Frank, thanks for dropping in and for your input and no, far from being completely wrong, you'r pretty much on the money!
    Yes, technically diesels don't need a butterfly, their lean burn engines that simply induce all the air they can get to achieve very high compression ratio which detonates the fuel, the power produced by a diesel engine is varied by varying the amount of fuel injected, they're not mixture [air fuel ratio] dependent engines like petrols.
    The Toyota Surf 2.4 LTE diesel motor achieves vacuum for accessories and power assisted brakes by way of a small positive displacement vane pump mounted on the front of the Alternator and it's arguable as to whether running the motor at a high manifold vacuum achieves greater engine braking as against running zero manifold vacuum and high compression ratio.
    The problem with allowing the throttle body butterfly to spring to wide open is that if power is lost to the electric motor that is holding it at the commanded position [bad connection or o/c winding in the motor] and the engine [for whatever reason] goes into runaway, then turning the ignition off no longer stops the engine.Far better and safer to have the tb spring wind the butterfly closed and force the engine to coast to a halt than to careen out of control sending you up the back end of the car in front. Bear in mind that being at close quarters to peak hour traffic on a freeway even in dry conditions let alone wet weather can be a challenging place to be even when everything is behaving itself. Having the engine suddenly go nuts and not stop when you turn the ignition off is a scary thought!
    Having the tb spring to wide open on a diesel defeats the golden rule of ignition off must = engine off.

    I probably could have put all this in a better way, but i'm dead tired and my brain is threatening to go into runaway unless I let it switch off!!
    Ciao, back soon,
    Rob
    2008 9-3 Linear 1.9 tid manual convertible

  11. #10
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    Re: Throttle body butterfly postion

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzard-t View Post
    Mines fully open when car is off .TID 150
    And my previous 120 TID was the same .
    Either I've got and had 2 9-3 s with funny throttle butterfly's or it's a defult Desing .
    Neo brothers brand new throttle body
    http://www.neobrothers.co.uk/throttl...sel-4987-p.asp
    Hi lizzard-t, thanks for the link to a new one and i note that it is shown in the wide open position. I had some time ago searched google images for throttle bodies and found some with the butterfly closed and others that were open, so couldn't find any consistancy looking at images.
    The words I put in bold underline above seem to be a spelling mistake [typo], perhaps meant to be default something?? Can you clarify for me?
    Cheers,
    Rob
    2008 9-3 Linear 1.9 tid manual convertible

  12. #11
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    Re: Throttle body butterfly postion

    Quote Originally Posted by richfr View Post
    At rest mine is fully open. (TTiD) mine failed the cogs stripped inside leaving it fully open.

    Apart from Opcom picking up a code the car ran very well with it stuck wide open.
    Hi Richfr, thanks for your comment, yes I can understand that the motor would run perfectly with the butterfly stuck open, in fact you could remove it all together and as far as the engine running is concerned, it would 'technically' make no difference, but of course to do so would negate the ignition key and/or ecu's ability to stop a runaway engine, which is generally achieved by blocking off the intake so no air can enter the motor.
    Cheers,
    Rob
    2008 9-3 Linear 1.9 tid manual convertible

  13. #12

    Re: Throttle body butterfly postion

    I'm dyslexic
    So should be design
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  14. #13
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    Re: Throttle body butterfly postion

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzard-t View Post
    I'm dyslexic
    So should be design
    Hi lizzard-t thanks for clarifying, I thought that's what you meant. Have been hoping merve84 might drop back here to add his thoughts, have even sent him a pm, but no luck thus far.
    Cheers,
    Rob
    2008 9-3 Linear 1.9 tid manual convertible

  15. #14

    Re: Throttle body butterfly postion

    He was last on here in 2013 ,
    So I would presume , he no longer comes on here for one reason or another .
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  16. #15
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    Re: Throttle body butterfly postion

    Hi again Lizzard-t, yes, his last post in that thread was some time ago, so maybe not to be seen again, shame.
    And here's another somewhat dated post from someone else [GregWaa] who was also perplexed about the tb butterfly.
    https://www.saabscene.com/forum/threa...tterfly-issues
    Cheers,
    Rob
    2008 9-3 Linear 1.9 tid manual convertible

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