totally broken engine WORST CASE SCENARIO

[yourjaguarlover]

Wow! An amazing forum with people that can clearly help. Hope someone can help me! I dont have any mechanical exp or ability at all, btw.
The (almost) worst situation possible has happened. Just bought 2nd hand '05 9-3 1.9TiD 150 saloon 8 weeks ago. Vector spec, absolutely lovely car and in great condition throughout, 73k miles, fSsh. Only a couple of minor issues: the 'infamous' retracting driver's window, the opposing wing mirror not working etc which we had sorted asap at friendly local garage. Shortly after the 'also infamous' dodgy alternator needed replacement. I had it booked in for major service in a couple of weeks (the car received its' 72k major service at 64k and both belts were changed, but i thought it best to get it checked thru anyway) It never made it.
At the weekend, under regular driving at around 50mph in motorway roadworks the car lost some power (felt like limp-home mode in my last car) then regained it momentarily before losing it again, for good. There were no engine management lights or warnings at all (i'm already very familiar with the range of warnings, having experienced the alternator problem) or any big bangs - just a total loss of power and a quiet rattling / knocking sound as i coasted in. Attempts by RAC and recovery guys proved a willingness to turn over but not catch at all
Its been recovered to a very reputable independent Saab specialist locally, and after checking a few obvious things with fuel level and type, sensors, fuses and switches (everyone involved looked confident that they could get it started, but looked broken after half an hour!) they did a full engine check and found that the whole unit was terminally damaged. Not just the block either.
It seems, and right now i have no reason to disbelieve it, that what's happened is that a tiny 2" long maybe 5mm diameter metal rod housed within the timing belt tensioner had worn out and snapped off, caught in the belt while driving, and had thus smashed the valves etc to pieces during it's revolution as i coasted to a standstill. Apparently, the tensioner in question is NOT a compulsory service item, perhaps because it's rare and unlucky that it might fail in this way (as opposed to a worn belt / chain slipping a tooth or two and taking out the block if not replaced at the right time). Once again, i stress that i dont really understand most of these terms, so this is my best interpretation of what ive been told.
The advice ive been given is that so much of the engine has been rendered inoperable, that the best thing i can do is replace the entire engine assembly as with damage of this nature repair of just the broken bits would be poor value and with a full replacement i at least get a brand new and guaranteed engine. I accept this logic in principle, but the parts plus repair come to almost £6k!!!
It could be worse... it is under warranty and it seems that i might even be covered by it! But, of course, i dont expect them to agree to the whole bill.
As it goes, i feel like the guys at the garage are being straight with me and they seem really knowledgeable and sympathetic. And who am i to know better?!!! But, given that this is going to cost me a few quid even if the warranty co accept liability and a LOT if they wont, does anyone have a different view or any additional advice?
Its a lovely, lovely car and i could have cried that something so straight looking with decent history could befall such an unlucky incident so do let me know if anyone thinks i could handle this differently.
Many thanks

[sgould]

Welcome to Saabscene - if "Welcome" is the right word in the circumstances...

I hate the rubber cam belts.

£6000 seems a lot. Are they quoting for new bits or a new engine? If the warranty turns out to be disappointing, you could consider a second hand engine. The basic design is common to Vauxhall, Fiat. Alfa Romeo.

Presumably you need new pistons and valves if you keep your own basic engine. Maybe connecting rods as well - and a camshaft?

Everything else will unbolt from your engine and bolt back on. But they would still have to do this with a new engine, it wouldn't come with all the ancilliaries.

The choice is cost of labour and parts in rebuilding your engine against the cost of one ready built. Secondhand might be an option for "ready built" to save a bit.

[Paul B]

It could be worse... it is under warranty and it seems that i might even be covered by it! But, of course, i dont expect them to agree to the whole bill.[/b]

If it's under warranty then you should be covered unless there is a maximum repair value clause, you may also have a claim on the supplying garage but you should get advice on this.
When my old 9-5 engine sludged up the symptoms were the same resulting in broken pistons,valves in fact if it moved it was damaged, and I got a reconditioned engine on warranty complete with turbo, this lasted a further 60000miles under my ownership.

[yourjaguarlover]

Thanks both;
The quote for the engine and all the ancilliary parts come to about 4.5k, and then of course there's the labour. I kind of take their point that if i'm going to need a whole new engine (yes, including pistons, valves cam etc) i might as well have new ancilliaries put in, these only amount to a few hundred of the total bill.
Maybe i'll look into a reconditioned or 2nd hand engine if it can save me a bit but i guess im hoping the warrantee will cover a new one. If not, its good to hear that your replacement engine managed 60k - not bad!
With regards to the supplying garage, i'll bear that in mind. Again, hopefully it wont come to this but here's a thing - when we went to buy the car i asked the salesman if it had a belt replacement recently. Rather than saying it had, he said that 'he didnt think this model needed one till around 100k'
Obviously, this advice was very wrong but, as it wasnt the belt itself that gave way i dont suppose i have much recourse.
Cheers

[harryO]

Most "repairers" would much prefer to fit new parts, than actually repair anything. Hard to believe so much damage has been done by what you describe and I would at least want them to remove the head and have a good look around. Depends on luck as much as anything else, but broken belts/tensioners often only result in a few bent valves. IMO a complete kit, belt, tensioner and pulleys should always be fitted whenever a cambelt is replaced and should cost very little extra.

[merve84]

The valves should be ok even though the piston has hit them. I think repairing it is the better option including - new rocker arms, cam belt, tensioner, idler and water pump. As long as the compressions are ok after you should be ok!

[merve84]

[mod edit] Post deleted- please use the Classifieds section to offer items for sale.

[alan6]

The valves should be ok even though the piston has hit them. I think repairing it is the better option including - new rocker arms, cam belt, tensioner, idler and water pump. As long as the compressions are ok after you should be ok![/b]

The valves they WILL need replacing it don't take much to bend em the rattling you heard was the pistons hitting the valves. Have the head taken off and check the pistons but I think you will find a couple with holes in them. When my 16V mondo belt failed ( only ticking over at the time ) i got away with just new valves, belt and tensioner.
You could drain the oil and if there are bits of piston in it you know the engine is screwed.

Alan

[yourjaguarlover]

more great advice, guys and its nice to have some options to take back to the garage. Thx also for the personal messages.

the latest update; the warranty co have accepted that the service regime was met but are disputing the level of damage - so theyre sending an investigator to see the engine for themselves.
Two things - i guess this is good news in theory, that assuming all is as seems they accept liability to insure the damage (here's hoping!) and also i'll get to see whether the damage is as the mechanics say it is.
That is - assuming that they send down a mechanic and not an accountant...

[Paul B]

An assessor should be an engineer so don't worry too much on that. there could be fairly substantial internal damage to the engine, valves are very likely to be shot if they've contaced the pistons, and the pistons themselves may have impact damage on the crowns however the camshafts should be ok. I'm guessing that at 50mph the revs were low on failure which will help. You could look at getting the water pump replaced, fro memory on this engine these can fail taking out the belt which will put you back to square 1, this should cost little with the engine out and stripped and maybe worth paying for yourself.
I hope this doesn't put you off, I was a bit disillusioned when my 9-5 sludged up and died but have bought two 9-3's since and have been happy with all 3 cars. In an earlier post I mentioned the 60000miles that my replacement engine did, that was under my ownership. The car was clearly going well for a while after I sold it from the number of times South Yorkshire Police caught it on their speed cameras.

[merve84]

The valves they WILL need replacing it don't take much to bend em the rattling you heard was the pistons hitting the valves. Have the head taken off and check the pistons but I think you will find a couple with holes in them. When my 16V mondo belt failed ( only ticking over at the time ) i got away with just new valves, belt and tensioner.
You could drain the oil and if there are bits of piston in it you know the engine is screwed.

Alan[/b]

Well that is your opinion but I have repaired over 10 of these engines mainly for water pump failure but never has a valve been bent.. The engine is designed to reduce internal damage incase of cam belt failure. The piston will hit the valve straight not bending it as it will hit the rocker arm which is designed to break to stop any further damage!

[N2STY]

Well that is your opinion but I have repaired over 10 of these engines mainly for water pump failure but never has a valve been bent.. The engine is designed to reduce internal damage incase of cam belt failure. The piston will hit the valve straight not bending it as it will hit the rocker arm which is designed to break to stop any further damage![/b]

its all to do with the design and its one thing that saab seam to of got it right

[alan6]

Didn't know that about the Saab engine merve, my only experience of belt failure ( tensioner wheel not belt ) was with a ford and that bent 10 of the 16 valves.
Alan

[yourjaguarlover]

y,know - it sounds like it might be useful if i find out all i can (considering i haven't looked that closely having no idea about this stuff!) and let you guys know what the final word is, when i get it.
i couldn't really have asked for more, like i said before this forum is great. I've got loads of options to look at depending on what the garage, the insurance and i myslef think.
I'll do what i can to let you all know what was definitely broken etc, whatever the outcome.
Still grateful for any further opinions!

[Enzo]

Hi there,
this sounds very familiar.

A pulley on my 150 16v disintegrated earlier this year.
The pulley is of the plastic type.

Result was timing belt came off, wrapped around the water pump.....
and bang.

I didn't know this at the time, engine had gone into limp mode briefly before stopping.
Mr RAC man got me to turn the engine over - probably not the best idea.

Anyway, the engine wasn't knackered.
My friendly Saab independent specialist fixed it for me.

Firstly, they told me that this is a 'safe' engine - ie. it is designed to break the rocker arms in the case of timing belt problems.
Total bill for 16 rocker arms, new pulley, timing belt and labour came out at £600 - but to be fair, they stuck to the quote they gave me, even though the labour took much more effort than they had estimated.

It's a Fiat engine btw, as fitted to Vauxhalls, Fiats and Alfa Romeos.

Hope this helps.

Enz