: 2.0T Carlsson Modding - Worth doing? (long)
05-10-2003, 03:07 PM
Is it ok to ask about something as old as '89 on here?
I'm thinking about buying an '89 2 litre Carlsson, having previously owned a 127k '91 2.3T CD Carlsson, (only mod was Trent Saab group N brake setup), which we took on a Ringtrip last September, I thought it felt unweildy and too prone to wheelspin and rev limiter bashing so came home and sold it, regretted it.
The 2 litre I'm looking at is an early one without a CAT so should be 204 bhp, down only 16 bhp on the 2.3T. The 2.0T has also got to be lighter as it has no AC, CCS, decor panel etc.
Its done 117 k, 1 owner, FSSH - fair price .
Looking for comparisons and modding advice.
On test driving the 2 litre Carly I felt that it was a bit quicker driving out of corners from low down and not that much slower higher up (sensible m/way speeds anyway) i.e < 100 mph. It feels like it has more grip & less wheelspin and is a lot more chuckable and nimble. As a motorcyclist I get my kicks driving out of corners more than straight line speed.
At the ring the 2.3T Carly was @ VMAX of 130mph down Schwedenkreuz & 125 ish up the main straight allowing for a cooling down run back into the car park.
From this I have concluded that, as I value my driving license, top end is not a major concern, driveability and "Fawlty factor" are THE CONCERNS.
So bottom line, is it worth doing or should I get another 2.3 Carly or Aero.
Its in such good nick I really am prepared to bite the BHP drop and get some ECU tweaking on the 2.0T. If so what can I reasonably do to up the performance a bit and create a good everyday car that will cruise to the Ring, do ring laps, maybe the odd trackday whilst retaining some of the comfort.
I'm prepared to lighten it somewhat but not a total strip out job, everyday car remember. Not got cash burning holes in my pockets either, but prefer not to do stuff unless I can do it properly.
Any thoughts or advice gratefully received.
Eric van Spelde
05-10-2003, 03:14 PM
Hey folks (Mark A, Maarten, Eric B, Leon,...) - looks like we got another 'Ring cruiser here!
Is it ok to ask about something as old as '89 on here?[/b]Well, seeing as my own car, Saabine, must be one of the more radically modded Saabs out there (destined for fast road/occasional track day use just like your intended purchase, not a straight line Autobahn burner...) and she's turned 18 today...
05-10-2003, 03:40 PM
Sounds like a great idea.. just got back from the 'ring with my Abbott Racing upgraded 9000 on Monday last...
I think it's a good idea to go for the lighter 9K... devoid of lux.. try and avoid anything with TCS (which isn't as obtrusive as I thought on the ring..)
Chassis modifications that REALLY work on the ring..(as fitted to my car)
Abbott poly bushings on the wishbones (better steering feel)
Abbott poly bushings on the front and rear antiroll bars.
Standard CD front anti roll bar, but uprated Abbott rear anti roll bar (Much better turn-in)
Koni Adjustable Dampers and Abbott lowering springs.
Bridgestone Potenza PP S-03 tyres.
With these chassis mods.. the car doesn't feel ponderious..it has great turn in.. brilliant stability and gives excellent grip.
For putting the power down cleanly.. torque arm mount changed to abbott poly.. and gearbox mount change to abbott poly.
As for performance additions - 3'' Downpipe and 3'' exhaust help add power and help with keeping exhaust gas temps down... could be worth 15 to 20hp if you de-cat.
DI/APC ECU upgrades.. I have an Abbott ECU in my car. but the speedparts kit is also good.. worth 30 to 40hp extra..
I've also got an gas flowed cyl head on my car.. which really helps the power at higher rpms.. prolly worth 10hp..
And ofcourse the required performance airfilter - K&N, ITG or J&R are all good...
Hope to see you are the ring one day.. a lot of us go regularly... Eric Burr, Maarten and myself are there 4 to 5 times a year.
05-10-2003, 03:42 PM
also have the trent saab staqge 2 kit.. it REALLY works at the ring too.. no fade, strong braking and little fuss.
Also with the mods I mentioned above.. drivability in town is un affected.. and the car doesn't feel rock solid or tiring when driving normally..
05-10-2003, 07:20 PM
I see lighter and better handling the right choice for the ring. Other than the section you mentioned and powering up the back section after bergwerk, there is really no need for lots of power at the Ring. The Ring rewards cars that behave and handle well, as you probably already know.
I really can't give you advice on a 9000 as I am a 9-3 guy. But I believe Mark is steering you in the right direction.
05-11-2003, 03:21 AM
I only got the chance to ride round the 'Ring as a passenger on Monday, since my Aero was off the road at the time, but along with the chassis mods Mark mentioned on his CD, I also have a LSD and this has worked well on other circuits. If quick exits from corners are what you want, this will definitely help. From what I've seen of the 'Ring, the LSD will be useful when I go back with the Aero.
My Aero's a heavy beast, but still does well on the track. A lighter 9000 would no doubt handle better.
Oh, and happy birthday, Saabine
05-11-2003, 03:25 AM
Almost forgot, I have the Trent (Brembo/Ferodo) brakes on my Aero, the same as Mark's CD. I've found them very fade-resistant. The only time I've ever got them to fade was after a couple of consecutive 130mph runs down Lavant Straight at Goodwood. I don't hold that against them, though.
05-11-2003, 05:52 AM
and she's turned 18 today... * *
*[/b]Isn't it about time she came out then and played with the boys ?
05-11-2003, 05:54 AM
Thanks for the replies chaps,
Sounds pretty positive. I'll get it then I think.
Group N Brakes will fade at the ring, we were doing three laps at a time, out lap/sighter, fast lap and in lap/cooling lap they were just going off on the third lap.
We just rolled up at the end of the lap, up the slip road and straight back to the barrier, was advised to do this by a local to keep the temps up in the tyres/brakes and to get a rhythm going.
Still I dont think thats too bad considering the amount of http://www.saabscene.com/forum/images/smilies/fawlty.gif they'd put up with doing it.
05-11-2003, 06:01 AM
Brake fade at the ring..
I suppose that can be down to different driving styles..
On my 9-3 (which has stock standard brakes), they hardly fade until the 4th and 5th lap.. where as on my 9K.. the TS Stage 2 kit didn't fade at all.. (I assume the stage 2 kit is the same now as it was then - Brembo Grey Iron Disks all round and DS2500 Ferodo Pads).
I usually use start-finish for cooling down.. and all but my first lap are hot laps.. (p.s. My 9K is a 2.3T 265hp Griffin model auto.. it's very heavy with electric seats, aircon and of course you use the brakes more on an auto box.)
05-11-2003, 09:27 AM
Yes same discs and pads but only on the fronts.
I put new oem disks and pads on the back when I fitted the TSL kit to the front.
Mind you I think we only did two laps were we didnt have to get out of the way of something MUCH quicker than us. So I didnt expect ANY fade TBH
Eric van Spelde
05-11-2003, 11:39 AM
We'll see how the same set up, but with DS 3000's en lieu of the DS 2500 fronts (new OEM rear discs & pads, just like yours) does on Saabine. Mind you, she's about 150 kg lighter than the 2.3 Carlsson CC and 250 versus a CS Aero...
Damien Shulock copied Saabine's front set up (late 9000 calipers, Brembo discs, Ferodo DS 3000 compound pads) for his trackday 900 and was impressed with its performance on the track. And he surely doesn't hang about...
05-16-2003, 02:08 PM
Ok, the usual questions... I have considered going with the Brembo Cross Drilled Rotors stock size and using EBC "Green" pads for everyday then switching to the EBC "red"s for track days. Does anyone now run the same or similar setup? Like Mark, I am heavy with the "Griffin" and it is an auto so the brakes Will get a workout.
05-16-2003, 02:13 PM
OOPS, Sorry, I got off topic a little there!
I would go with the 2.0L Carly, It's fast and lighter stock so with some good mods it should fly. The way I would look at it is..how many tracks do you drive on that have long, long straight sections? Rallycar speed out of the corners on most tracks will result in faster speeds on the straight anyway. Also it is going to serve as a family car so you have the best of both worlds!! http://www.saabscene.com/forum/images/smilies/fawlty.gif
05-16-2003, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by Griffin #341:
I have considered going with the Brembo Cross Drilled Rotors stock size and using EBC "Green" pads for everyday then switching to the EBC "red"s for track days.[/b]I used GreenStuff in my Aero and found them very poor. The day I had an accident because they couldn't stop me from 30mph, teh dog fared rather better than the pads which hit the bottom of the bin when I got home that evening.
Other people here will tell you the same. No dust? True - for about 1000 miles. Higher friction? for about the same distance, then performance became worryingly unpredictable. Noisy too, again after a while.
I've heard it said that this compound is not suitable for a vehicle as heavy as the 9000. Just because the pads fit (the calipers are standard on other cars too) doesn't mean the compound is up to the job.
I have no experience of RedStuff.
Disc-wise, I have the Brembo discs on my Aero. Mine aren't drilled, which gives more contact area between the disc and pad. Neither Trent Saab nor Abbott racing now supply these discs cross-drilled. Abbott say cross-drilling is largely cosmetic and that they found that drilled discs tend to crack.
The plain discs work very well with the Ferodo DS2500 pads. Having driven Saabine briefly, I'll try DS3000 up front next time I change them (which will be soon).
I use the DS2500s both on the road and on the track. If you prefer to use different pads for road and track, the best road pads I've come across are Mintex M1144. I've found they perform slightly better when cold than the DS2500 and significantly better from cold than standard pads. When warm, they are very good. I've never faded them on the road, but found them a bit easier to fade on the track than the DS2500.
05-16-2003, 04:03 PM
I have to agree with bill on the mintex pads for the road anyway
now my 1144's are bedded in they are giving excellent bite and feel real progressive
as for slotted drilled argument who knows
I know if they do not drill them properly then you can get cracked discs
slotted ? my last discs were the 80 groove tarox and they looked nice but they were not much, if any ,better than stock
My present godspeed brakes are very good and progressive and they are drilled and slotted..
but noisy and dusty but the discs are gauranteed against cracking and warping !
the consensus on std brake sizes seem to lean to the grey iron brembo discs and the mintex / ferodo pads
Mark in Ireland
05-22-2003, 01:38 PM
I suppose I should bring another playing onto the field as all I hear about is Brembo this, brembo that.....I read all the reports on various brakes when I upgraded...I wasn't prepared to pay silly Abbott prices so I went for Black Diamond discs, grooved and drilled fronts and drilled rears. And fitted with their own make Predator pads are on par with the best brakes in business, they constantly come top of tests run by car magazines and fitted to my 2.3 Carlsson have saved my skin a few times, on their ability to scrub of serious speed in such a short distance! My 2 cents worth...
05-22-2003, 01:45 PM
Mark, I am due to move up to cockermouth in a month. Not far from bothel is it?
A mini carly meet??? http://www.saabscene.com/forum/images/smilies/fawlty.gif
Mark in Ireland
05-22-2003, 02:08 PM
6 miles...my local is in Cockermouth, the Bitter End,...best real ale pump for miles!! Also best Indian Takeaway on the main street for Counties.....plus some great roads and views, but you will already know that!!!
You will see where I live if you travel passed Bothel on the A595, cottage on the edge of the A595 with the garden full of Saabs.
Tea and biscuits will be served!!!
05-22-2003, 05:03 PM
Sounds good. Cockermouth looks lovely - and the area in general is stunning........the roads are even better! http://www.saabscene.com/forum/images/smilies/fawlty.gif http://www.saabscene.com/forum/images/smilies/fawlty.gif
05-22-2003, 05:12 PM
Sounds good. Cockermouth looks lovely - and the area in general is stunning........the roads are even better![/b]plus the added benefit of the Jenning brewery shop just round the corner past the Saab 99 and saab 96
05-22-2003, 06:15 PM
I've heard it said that this compound is not suitable for a vehicle as heavy as the 9000. Just because the pads fit (the calipers are standard on other cars too) doesn't mean the compound is up to the job.[/b]Probably true, EBC greenstuff pads are fitted to the Locosaki (400kg!) that my housemate has just bought. Apparently Stuart Taylor Motorsport rate these pads very highly, so perhaps that would compounds the theory that the greenstuff pads work better on lightweight cars.
05-22-2003, 07:02 PM
Yes, I believe that they work OK on Elise's, but Pagids are the best.
Mark in Ireland
05-23-2003, 04:07 AM
.......plus the added benefit of the Jenning brewery shop just round the corner past the Saab 99 and saab 96......
I sense a stalker amongst us!!
I think the 96 had gone...I need to stop and find out who owns them...I think the owners are area reps for the SOC, Cumbria Division.
I have noticed a couple of new (for the area) 9000 Carlssons passing me on the Carlisle road...getting to be common as muck!!
05-23-2003, 09:42 AM
The mini carly meet is getting bigger then!!
I didnt realise there was a brewery until I got out of my car.......then it hit me.
It smells ok actually - some breweries smell terrible!
Are there any indie saab garages in the area?
Mark in Ireland
05-23-2003, 10:31 AM
Theres a good one in Carlisle, MGM motors run by a guy called Malcolm...only problem is he doesn't have a ESAT or TECH II so he has to go to Adrian Smith who are on the A595. The mechanics at Smiths are helpful but aren't genned up on older Saabs so I only use them for reading faults when necessary.
I use a small backstreet garage in Wigton who has done everything required on items I don't have the time to fix....also he gives us a spare car to use whilst he's doing the work...no extra charge.