: "Are TDi's the new GTi's"
05-10-2002, 10:46 AM
I've put that in quotes as I stole in from scoobynet!
But I think there is truth in it - how many times have you seen a TDi screaming down the motorway, or inches from your bumper?
They're a lot quicker today these days too - still no match for my Carly - I enjoy showing them "Who's the Daddy!"
1991 9000 Carlsson 2.3T
2001 VW Passat 2.0SE Not TDi!
If I were a pedant, I'd remind you that Saabs are "TiD" not TDi - VW has the trademark on that. Hence Ford is TDCi or something
I've reviewed what I have said above, and given what Kevin has said I think he is spot on if referring to VWs.
05-10-2002, 11:10 AM
Suppose it's all Turbo Diesels but more specifically stuff like the 150BHP Golf TDi....
05-10-2002, 11:12 AM
I have never understood the need to have TDI on the back of any car. Ok if it is a Turbo Diesel, then TD is ok, but it has to be 'injection' if it is a diesel surely.A diesel without injectors ? I don't think so . http://www.saabscene.com/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
05-10-2002, 11:21 AM
Just going to take my GG 1HP dark brown 4Xleg drive for a spin around the farm. Performs well for 1HP, about 26 MPH on a good day
Suppose it's all Turbo Diesels but more specifically stuff like the 150BHP Golf TDi.... *[/b]In which case you are correct, sir. There was no need for me to be a pedant.
05-10-2002, 11:33 AM
where are you?? I could do with some of your 'osses bye product.
05-10-2002, 12:34 PM
the 'i' might stand for Intercooler.. as in the dirty great big crossflow one suspended to the front of my radiator...
I've no idea why the 'i' is there either...
Speaking up for the Diesel contigent.. motorway screaming is the TiD/TDI/HDI/TDCi/CDI/D thing... its party trick.. it's reason for living.. for being... denying it, is not causing it to become...
When I'm motoring I know one true thing..(and I'm not trying to be contentious here! honest)... if there were a race and you pitted your 230HP 9000 against, say my, TiD... and the race was from say, Munich to Hamburg on derestricted Autobahn (no speedlimits all the way).. do you know who'd get there first? I would.. everytime.. even although you'd have 60 extra horses to play with.. I'll be cruising at 130MPH doing 38 to the gallon and make the trip in one tank, you'ld have to stop.. probably twice. And I'd for sure beat a Scooby (my scooby only did 300KM to a tank, compaired to 800KM to a tank in my TiD - same driving style)
Yesterday, for example - I tanked up in Eindhoven, drove 200KM to The Nurburgring, did 132KM hard track work, then drove back to Eindhoven, before tanking again.
So - the fasted cars on the road from Point A to (distant) point B ?? - The TiD/TDI/HDI/TDCi/CDI/D. - Also watch out Britain.. 'cause the performance diesel is coming.. and with so much torque.. you'll have to change down to pass it...
05-10-2002, 01:26 PM
Turbos are the future of performance motoring. The diesel bit is the gimmick, not the turbo, I'm sure Gassy would like to remind us all of how we can improve a cars range without resorting to the smelly black stuff.
The manufacturers are just trying to maximise the return on their investment on diesel technology, tuning up their diesel engine's is probably no more expensive than reprogramming the petrol cars to make them into GT's. The technology's already there, just turn the dials up to 11, it's cheaper than developing a bigger amp .. innit.
05-10-2002, 01:59 PM
You're joking aren't you.... the sheer technology and research going into Diesel engines these days is amazing... most of today's systems are using, high-powered management units, direct injection, fly-by-wire throttles, 4 valves per cylinder, Balancer shafts, intercoolers and turbo chargers. New technologies in the way fuel is introduced into the cylinder are being pioneered in the diesel development arena then passed to the petrol.
I'm sorry but LPG is a bit 'old hat' here in Europe, so i've lost the wow factor.. also contrary to what you've been hearing.. fitting LPG to cars that have higher outputs than LPTs is pretty ill-advised.. you would be hard pushed here to find an LPG supplier that would fit LPG to a HOT turbo engined car.. and there is much more experience with LPT in Europe than in the UK. I'm glad Gassy's works fine, the supplier obviously did a fine job and I'm not detracting from that.. and it's not as if I'm a environment freak or anything.. all I'm saying is.. Britain, loose the fuel snobbery and see what the rest of Europe already sees.. Diesels have changed, and for the better!
05-10-2002, 02:04 PM
For yonks I believed the neighbour’s Peugeot said GROT on the back. Thought this very honest for a car maker but it turns out it reads GRDT. Some kind of diesel thingy I guess. Must visit the opticians' soon http://www.saabscene.com/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
05-10-2002, 03:53 PM
SteveN -its probably just the diesel fumes got into your eyes!
05-10-2002, 04:55 PM
I don't care about the performance comparison, but my dad's 9-3 TiD sounds like a bloody tractor, if I wanted something that sounded like a Massey Ferguson then I'd buy a bloody Massey Ferguson!
Ever noticed a diesel under full acceleration? or haven't you noticed because of the black smog that follows a diesel car
Long live petrol!
05-10-2002, 05:05 PM
Bah… humbug… you’re all a bunch of philistines…
And as for the black smog... emm no, then it's an older technology unit., or it's buggered.
Exhaust Gas Recirculation, no smog thanks.
As for Massey Ferguson, well there's no reply to that.. it does sound abit like that when it's cold...
Oh well, i've tried to educate you... but.. well..
You should ask Maarten van Dorst what he thinks of mine... his normal ride is a 900 that's been to Hirsch Performance - his machine puts out 230HP and was my co-driver round The Nurburgring yesterday.. his words.. "f*ck me this thing's fast, nothing like I was expecting, and bloody hell, does it corner!"
In my book, you just have to put your money where your mouth is. Of course when Abbott Motorsport have had their way with your car, even a diesel can impress.
05-10-2002, 05:14 PM
When I last bought a car I looked into the various costs of diesel vs petrol and I'm afraid petrol won. OK, my French Wedge TurboD would go round the globe on a tank but here's what you have to consider:
MPG: Xantia 43, Saab 35 (yes, 35!)
fuel cost: diesel usually 2p/l more
servicing: Xantia every 6,000, Saab up to 12,000
particles......the PSA engine is regarded as one of the best, but it's still a diesel and that means smoke. Even the current crop with their common rail systems and particle filters still produce smoke. We do bad enough things to the environment already.
So petrol won. Don't get me wrong, diesel technology has come a long way but I'll stick to petrol for now.
and I get to let Rover 400 drivers know that it's pretty pointless tailgating me (happened this morning). disappearing into the distance is way cooler than disappearing into a cloud.
05-10-2002, 05:30 PM
Mike H, you seem to be talking s**t Will make sure you get some . Do you grow roses ?
05-10-2002, 06:03 PM
And now we see the nub of the problem...
MPG: Xantia 43, Saab 35 (yes, 35!)
fuel cost: diesel usually 2p/l more
servicing: Xantia every 6,000, Saab up to 12,000[/b]MPG : Saab 9-3 Turbo avg: 11litres/100KM - Saab 9-3 TiD avg : 6.9litres/100KM (abbott tuned)
Power/Torque: Saab 9-3 Turbo 185HP/250NM Torque - Saab 9-3 TiD (abbott) 160HP/340NM Torque.
Fuelcosts : Diesel 35% (sometimes more) cheaper than petrol (Continental Europe)
Servicing : Saab 9-3 Turbo every 12,000 miles - Saab 9-3 TiD - every 10,000 miles.
hmm.. so, if I work this out..
Here.. TiD is more expensive to buy than the 185 Turbo by 900 Euro.
So, I have to claw back at least 900 euro over ownership to break even.
I drive 40000KM per year and I get 800KM to a tank and it costs 55 euro a tank - so thats 2750 Euro per year in fuel - multiplied by 4 years (the length of time I keep my car) - that's 11,000 euro in fuel over the life of the car.
Now compare the 185 Turbo, I'll probably get 500KM a tank and it costs 71.50 Euro a tank - so that's 5720 Euro per year - multiplied by 4 years - that's 22,880 euro over the life. My TiD has saved me in fuel alone - 11,880 Euro over four years, all for the sake of accepting a 25 HP shortfall and jibes of you lot.
So there should be room in that 11,880 euro to buy the extra 3 services over the life of the car. Also depreciation is better on a diesel here (economy and longevity you see) so when I sell it, well...
And as for the environment I'd have burned 6560 litres of fossel fuel less than the Turbo. And CO2 emissions, at 164 g/km against the Turbo's 201g/km.. ohh my.. which car is worst on emissions now..
Of course it's different in Britain to the rest of Europe...
05-10-2002, 07:23 PM
Interested in your Shantia experiences. I likewise defect so Saab from a Xantia TD, mainly pushed by being sick of servicing it every three months (2000m per month was silly at the time, but it was getting mildly ridiculous).
I was paranoid about missing the economy of the Xantia plus the magic carpet ride. However, switiching to a 185bhp 900SE, I was getting 32mpg, far more infrequent servicing, and a far more fun car to drive. Plus the ride really wasn't as much of a culture shock as I expected. I'm now on 9-3 Cabrio, and love it to bits.
Interesting though, that the last two occasions my 9-3 has been in I have been given 9-3 TiD's as courtesy cars. I drove the first TiD in the country (my first Saab driving experience) and loved it. Peppy, economical and comfortable. However, switching back to diesel after a few years in pertrol was not so pleasant. I remember thinking the 9-3 TiD was quiet, both at idle and under power. But compared with my cabrio (even if I had the roof down!) it was noisy and downright agricultural. It is interesting how perceptions change! Sure, tha car was quick 50-70, and handled perfectly well, but I couldn't help thinking that even if it had the best handling on the planet, I'd still miss the instant off-the-line power of a petrol, and the serene comfort of driving at 120mph across Germany surrounded by a howling gale.... and no engine noise whatsoever!
I'm most curious about the comment fom Mark about the diesel being expensive - in the UK the diesel is substantially cheaper than the 185 petrol, and in fact, if I remember correctly is actually £400 or so CHEAPER than even the 150bhp LPT, making it the cheapest 9-3 to buy.... yet with our diesel fuel prices consistently higher than unleaded, and taxed higher, the car simply isn't efficient enough to be economically viable - as Martin rightly says, with my LPT returning a solid 33-35mpg, and the TiD only managing about 44 in the same conditions, it would take an intergalactic mileage for the figures to stack up.
Now all Saab need to do is offer a Hirsch treatment for the TiD engine, make it as economical as a VW/Audi diesel, and encase the engine block in lead, and I'll buy one!
05-11-2002, 05:56 AM
Although I dont own or intend to own a Diesel,the pace of improvement is staggering,in cars and wagons,however the initial cost would put me off,plus the fact that derv is a dirty stinking fuel,get it on your hands or shoes and you can smell it for hours,and you run the chance of varios skin infections.
rob 123,Funny,other peaple have said that.
05-11-2002, 05:57 AM
but my dad's 9-3 TiD sounds like a bloody tractor[/b]Didn't Lamborghini build tractors? It was one of those exotic Italian marques.
I still have not driven a diesel Saab, and I used to be very anti-diesel Saabs. I was a passenger in a 9-5 V6 TiD and boy did that thing shift I'd definitely consider a diesel Saab now
05-11-2002, 10:41 AM
You're joking aren't you[/b]No, but I'm not entirely without my tongue in my cheek.
Diesel engines are very very good nowadays, but the fastest diesel will never match the fastest petrol motor. And being a performance addict, this is what counts for me.
I don't do very many long journeys so range isn't really a factor, also I only average about 7K a year living 10 minutes from work so the cost difference is negligible. Also my finances won't stretch to a new Saab TiD so I'd be lumped with an old Pug or VW, and 6/7 year old diesels are not very attractive.
But, if I was offered either a turbo diesel or small (< 2 litre) NA petrol engine as a company car I would probably choose the diesel.
05-11-2002, 02:14 PM
A mate of mine has a company Passat Estate TDI PD 115, worthy car, what does he hanker for......
a 99 Turbo 2-door
I hanker for a 99 that goes
Given a choice between SRi 130 2.2 Tid Vectra or SRi 150 or V6 I'll have the V6 anytime....
05-13-2002, 03:27 AM
Lamborgini owned SAME tractors - not sure if they still do. But I've seen a SAME tractor with Lamborgini stamped on the battery!
05-13-2002, 06:26 AM
Quite right. Lamborgini did make tractors and also Diesel , and electro-diesel locomitves.
05-13-2002, 02:01 PM
Yeah! yeah! yeah!
Lamborghini apparently still make tractors, but do you see diesel Countachs, Diablos or Murcielagos?
While we are at it There is talk of Fiat diesels replacing the GM ecotecs that sit in the 9-3 and 9-5; considering all the furore concerning the F1 yesterday and all the correspondents claiming they won't buy a Ferrari on that account, I've something to tell you.
Fiat own Ferrari.
05-13-2002, 02:17 PM
Thats OK as I don't plan to buy a new Saab anyway , when i can afford a new car in the £16 - £25K bracket it will probably be Japanese and 4-wheel drive. Need I say more ?
I will of course, always have a Saab tucked away somewhere.
05-13-2002, 02:36 PM
Except for the GM japanese 4WD called Subaru WRX, only that EVO stick is supposed to be any good.
But I think that they are all wrong. That Skyline kinda turns me on..
05-13-2002, 04:03 PM
Lamborghni without doubt started out life,as manufacturers of tractors. A friend has a 1990 model, but only aspires to a Ford Escort as the family car.
05-13-2002, 04:25 PM
I love the current R34 GT-R Skyline as well Stanley, it's gonna take some kind of career advancement before I can afford one of those !! That or 6 numbers on the lottery.