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john
01-28-2003, 05:10 AM
27/1/2003
Source: http://www.channel4.com/apps26/4car/jsp/ma...lnk=211&id=5051 (http://www.channel4.com/apps26/4car/jsp/main.jsp?lnk=211&id=5051)

More detail has emerged concerning Saab's plan to introduce a smaller model based on the Subaru Impreza. Prototypes are already under evaluation, based on the five-door version of the current Impreza. Examples of the Subaru have been remodelled with Saab front-end styling and a redesigned tail for management assessment. Here, we've doctored a picture of the current Impreza and 9-3 to give a hint at what the new car may look like. Top and tailling apart, the car is said to look remarkably similar to the Impreza, with many panels, including the doors and roof, left unchanged. No go-ahead has been given for the project, but if it does get the green light, the new Saab, probably to be known as the 9-1, would go on sale sometime in 2004.

The tie-up with Subaru is possible because the Japanese company is part-owned by Saab's owners General Motors. Subaru's management would have to give the project their blessing since GM does not have majority control, but the deal is a potentially profitable one for them - the car would be built in Japan, and would improve the profitability of both the Impreza and Legacy, which share the same platform.

GM is also considering basing a smaller Saab on the next-generation Impreza, although this would mean a longer wait for the new car. However, it would allow Saab to have more significant input into the design, improving its crash performance - a major Saab selling point - and allowing the development of the range of diesel engines that are vital for European sales.

The surprising decision to adapt a Subaru to make a Saab is the result of General Motors' growing impatience with the Swedish company, which continues to lose money and, with annual sales of only 120,000 cars, is nowhere near its 175,000 capacity. It is currently making a fifth of its workforce redundant, and its engineering department is being more closely integrated with GM's Opel operation in a move that many fear may lose the brand its individuality.

Saab had previously considered a smaller car based on GM's Delta platform, which will eventually yield the next Astra, but had rejected it because it was not sufficiently Saab-like. Ironically this is a criticism it will be much easier to level at a Subaru-based model. Saab had also been co-developing an off-roader with GM's Cadillac, a model that would have considerably helped sales in US, but this project has also been abandoned. One of Saab's difficulties is deciding what kind of car its third model range should be. A smaller Saab might do well in Europe but not in the US, one of its major markets, while the reverse would apply to an off-roader.

But at the root of its troubles is GM's failure to invest in the marque on the scale necessary to realise its potential. GM's investment pales before the sums Ford has spent on Jaguar and Fiat on Alfa Romeo, for example. While the creation of a Saab from a Subaru will undoubtedly bring the company its desired third model range, the car in question may ultimately do much to damage the brand.

john
01-28-2003, 05:12 AM
and here is there picture of a Saabaru http://www.saabscene.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif

http://www.channel4.com/4car/news/270103saab.jpg

Eric van Spelde
01-28-2003, 06:29 AM
Sounds like they will have to wait for the next-gen Impreza platform even if Detroit doesn't like that - they would be extremely naive to think that anyone would choose a Saab-badged 'Preza over the real thing as the Scooby is quite high on image on its own - and no doubt they'll be aware that trying to sell a car in this segment over here without a diesel option will not bring the desired volume growth at all.

1989agoodvintage
01-28-2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by Eric van Spelde:
Sounds like they will have to wait for the next-gen Impreza platform even if Detroit doesn't like that - they would be extremely naive to think that anyone would choose a Saab-badged 'Preza over the real thing as the Scooby is quite high on image on its own - and no doubt they'll be aware that trying to sell a car in this segment over here without a diesel option will not bring the desired volume growth at all. [/b]Here here. It is one of those situations, it could work wonders but if the press decide to turn against it, Saab could be finished.

Wolf957
02-06-2003, 09:02 AM
I have to say ... i'm not one to spend that much on a car to be associated with a subaru owner. it sounds elitist and snobbish, but well that's how a lot of people will feel methinks

sgould
02-06-2003, 09:09 AM
http://www.saabscene.com/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif Just said on the other thread that Car magazine reckon it will be based on the Alfa 147.....but then they're only journalists.

Wolf957
02-07-2003, 05:40 AM
And all we have to go on are riddles in the dark..

Eric van Spelde
02-07-2003, 06:04 AM
Talked with the director and the PR bloke of the Dutch Saab importers yesterday at the AutoRAI motorshow (Amsterdam); they both confirmed that a delegation of Swedes is in Japan right now rather than Milan...
The decision about go or no go will be in two months, then it will be 24 more to product launch. Which means it will not be an Impreza with a Saab nose-job, as " if we wanted that, we would have had such a car by tomorrow" .

Personally, I think Subaru is darn cool. Don't see why the association with Subaru would put off people that are accepting Saabs based on Opels (Vauxhalls for UK folks) right now. Personally, I wouldn't admit to owning an Opel, but would have little problems being seen in a Subaru - they're not exactly pretty, but at least geared to suit driving enthusiasts rather than Mr. and Mrs. Boring...

9000CS23T
02-07-2003, 03:22 PM
I've got to agree Eric, Imprezza's are conceived as rice racer car's, but the technology is pretty good( they don't know how to do interiors though http://www.saabscene.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif ). I too would be happy with a Saab with Subaru technology, as long as it still looks and drives Saab. http://www.saabscene.com/forum/images/smilies/fawlty.gif

Neil

murphwiz
02-07-2003, 04:10 PM
What can be wrong with an scooby chassis, with a 9-x style body drpaed over it...

Would make a damn fine point to point beast imho...
I'd have one anyday....
Perfect ideal really, as I couldn't possibly buy a scooby.... they are just tooo ugly

James
02-07-2003, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by Leon (murphwiz):
What can be wrong with an scooby chassis, with a 9-x style body drpaed over it...

Would make a damn fine point to point beast imho...
I'd have one anyday....
Perfect ideal really, as I couldn't possibly buy a scooby.... they are just tooo ugly * * * [/b]Yup, I'd buy one (if I had the money and were in the market for a new car etc). I think the general public might, too, but I do think the Scooby origins need to be confined to under the skin.

James

aeropilot
02-08-2003, 05:02 AM
Agree with Leon and James on this.
The 9-X or 93-X with the Scooby 4wd drive system, rather than the proposed Haldex system, but with the engine from the 9-5 Aero would be a great and outstanding Saab......and I'd beg, borrow and whotzit to have one.....

James
02-08-2003, 05:53 AM
Sadly I fear the days of the B235R as seen in the 9-5 Aero are numbered - the decision seems to have been made to ditch Saab's powerplants in favour of GM units, so once the 9-5 is replaced I suspect the good old B-engine will die with it

James

Wolf957
02-08-2003, 06:25 AM
I heard from my service guy that the older 93 and current 95 engines have titanium cylinder bores and head gaskets vs the new 93's aluminium.. and apparently i can upgrade engine power to, say, double, without having to worry about the part not being able to withstand the stress.. altho at the sacrifice of 100,000 km lifespan of the original's 500,000km.. as if i were going to drive that much in say 10 years.

It seems that Saab overengineering in some parts will be ancient history in no time at all. At least the Scooby probably drives better than any existing Saab.. but the interior HAS to go, as does typical japanese tin can manufacturing standards. Altho i'd be the first to admit Saab could do with their reliability.

Apparently a typical Peugeot 406 has about double the welds that a Honda Accord has.. and BMW's manufacturing tolerances are one-third that of the industry norm.. any idea where Saab stands in all of this?

MartinR
02-11-2003, 02:15 AM
a typical Peugeot 406 has about double the welds that a Honda Accord has[/b]Maybe the Honda doesn't need them.


and BMW's manufacturing tolerances are one-third that of the industry norm[/b]I find this hard to believe. Surely there's no way they would be able to produce affordable cars. In any case, competent Engineering design should lead to a relaxation of tolerances not a requirement for closer ones.

Wolf957
02-11-2003, 07:16 AM
wouldn't smaller tolerances result in a more precisely manufactured component/car?

MartinR
02-11-2003, 09:07 AM
Yes, that statement is correct. However, if you continue to tighten up each component tolerance you will pass the point where this ceases to actually improve the performance or reliability of the system. Therefore you'd end up spending more money than necessary on over-specified parts.
Engineers therefore use methodologies to determine what tolerance is appropriate for each component. Further system analysis can reveal the effect on system performance due to variation in specification (eg geometry) of particular components with a view to tightening tolerance of those parts that matter and perhaps relaxing the tolerance of those that have a lesser effect. The ultimate goal is to redesign a system to be intolerant to particular component variation such that it can be built more cheaply and reliably. This approach is often termed "Robust Engineering Design" or "Taguchi Methods".

Wolf957
02-11-2003, 11:45 AM
Hence over-engineering? I believe it is a popular theory that Mercedes was fond of doing that in their earlier, and somewhat more lovingly remembered, days.

Then again, BMW does walk all over Saab where reliability is concerned, or so the statistics would have us believe. And being a Saab owner, i dare say there are certainly some parts that seem distinctly under-specified, no?

MartinR
02-11-2003, 12:33 PM
BMW does walk all over Saab where reliability is concerned, or so the statistics would have us believe[/b]Well it depends whose statistics you are reading! According to a survey by Which® the (Classic) 9-3 was the most reliable car on the market . If only I could find the link .

john
02-11-2003, 03:05 PM
This is the link:
http://sub.which.net/motoring/reports/aug2...01frontpage.jsp (http://sub.which.net/motoring/reports/aug2002mt34t35/01frontpage.jsp)

but you need to be a member to see it.

Wolf957
02-11-2003, 03:42 PM
hehe.. i'll take your word for it I do agree the 9-3 is strangely reliable.. nothing major has gone wrong with it.. but the minor niggles, loose steering, creaking window, drying up battery, weak door hinges i could do very well without