Story in this week's Autocar says that Saab will launch in late 2004 a 9-1 which will have the platform, engine and 4WD system from the Subaru Impreza. The car may be made in Japan ... so those Saab employees laid off in December will be dancing in the streets ...

Paul Whittle

A Saab 9-1?

Will this be a Subaru Justy equivalent. I can see the similarities already. Turbo and just three cylinders - harking back to their two-stroke days.

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Hmm, a Saab with a flat-4? Could satisfy my repressed VW loyalties, I suppose

Engine seems a bit unlikely. Platform - if the rumours are true (well, Car wrote something similar just before Christmas so either they may be on to something or this is becoming some sort of urban legend) it would be great news. But after the latest Opel/Saab engineering takeo.. er, 'cooperation' I guess an Astra platform and Opel engines will probably be the staple diet. If the Trolls are being good boys, they might let them have some turbo's to play with...

But the 9-3X body on Impreza running gear, with a Saab turbo (or better SVC) engine... car finance, here I come!

Will it be a hatch back?

Will it go like stink?

Will it be Saab?

Looks like the 'Scoop' on the 9-2 in AutoExpress last month http://www.saabscene.com/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Obviously a PhotoShop image - lights etc are definitely 9-3SS. Come to think of it am I right in thinking that the Epsilon chassis can accomodate AWD??

I think that Saab should cater for niche products and not dilute the engineering integrity that Trollhattan is renowned for by pandering to the accountants in Detroit. To put it bluntly if I want to pay £20+k for a car I want something to stand out as something different. The 9-3 and 9-5 do this very well, the new 9-3 is lovely but I do find the 9-5 very erogenous zone ticklingly beautiful. If Saab went down the road of building lightly disguised Opels/Vauxhalls then I'll save my money or look elsewhere .

In answer to some of the questions and points posted above:
the story says that it will be a hatchback, with a shorter rear overhang than the Impreza, and about 4.2m overall.
It suggests that the boxer engine and driveline would be used to reduce costs and development time (though instead of the nat-asp version, an LPT of around 180bhp would be developed to complement the 220bhp full turbo)
Regarding the platform, the article says that the first attempt (in the early 90s and based on the Astra) was canned due to lack of funds and engineering resources, that the next Astra floorpan was investigated "but the Impreza's dynamics were deemed a more natural fit" and that "the shortened Epsilon platform which underpins the 9-3 was also considered but ruled out on cost grounds"
According to the article "styling proposals are already on the drawing board" - they'd damn well have to be if the car is to be on sale "in late 2004"!!

I'll believe it when I see it ....

Paul Whittle

I just hope there is some substance to the story, and not just another bit of filling in the AutoExpress mag.

If it is true - it sounds excellent. I'd certainly be interested, as it'll come in cheaper than the 9-3ss.

that the next Astra floorpan was investigated "but the Impreza's dynamics were deemed a more natural fit" *[/b]Huh... the General all of a sudden gets what Saab is (was/should be) all about?

If that's the case, it would be excellent news indeed...

Hmm, sounds like it could be a bit of a rush job to me. Rather like the early GM900 which was a big disappointment for fans of the C900.

While I love both Saabs and Subarus, but a Subaru badged as a Saab is a bit phoney imho and will do nothing to enhance the reputation of either brand. The concept itself is pretty close to my ideal Saab; turbo 4-pot and AWD .. just wish they could fit a genuine Saab engine which could embarass the Scooby B4. We shall see.

Hmm, sounds like it could be a bit of a rush job to me. Rather like the early GM900 which was a big disappointment for fans of the C900.[/b]Yeah, but that was mainly because a configuration that was highly impressive dynamically despite its age (not my words, but those of Autocar & Motor or What Car? - I forget which - on road testing a humble 900i somewhere in '89) was swapped for a ho-hum suspension set up lifted from a dwonmarket repmobile. In these times where it's accepted as a fact of life that even exotics have to share platforms with other models from a brand cluster, I can't imagine anyone complaining when the first affordable Saab in decades rides on the underpinnings of what is arguably the performance hero of the last decade.

Seen from another point of view, lots of people would buy Impreza's if it wasn't for the boy-racer image, horrid interior and Japanese tin can feeling. I know I would. If the signs are right, and Saab continues to specify their own design and ergonomics, it would be our way of cake preservation and consumption at the same time. Of course, a proper Saab engine, preferably SVC, would be far better still.

OTOH, I wonder how the Scooby flat-four would fare when mated to the worlds most advanced engine management system...

Sorry, I know I've said it before, but this bastardizing of marques is a real shame.
I always thought that the beauty of Saabs is that they are a like grown up's car with a pulse, ie. big, comfy and fast http://www.saabscene.com/forum/images/smilies/fawlty.gif .
This thing sounds like it's shaping up to be a small/medium sized hot hatch MaxPower special. Citroen Saxos will be flashing their headlights to you in recognition http://www.saabscene.com/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif .
No thanks.
The fact that they even considered/are considering using the Astra as a platform makes me want to rip all the GM bits out of my '98 900 (until I realise that would leave little but the engine and wheels http://www.saabscene.com/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif ).
Subarus are great cars - no doubt about it - but why make a hybrid. The one thing most of us seem to agree on about Saabs is that we love their unique quirkiness. That has been lessened by the 9-3SS and this project would probably kill it off completely.

For goodness sake people...

This is no bad thing... at least it could keep Saab alive!!!!!

EVERY CAR, NO MATTER WHO MAKES IT HAS PARTS THAT CAN BE FOUND ON ANOTHER CAR.. There are only so many automotive suppliers out there.

If GM can spread the costs of development around their brand portfolio to make properly developed cars, where all new cars benefit from this.. then great.. it's just simple economics.

The day of the quirky, odd-ball, limited, small production run Saab is OVER. Either Saab survives in some form.. or it doesn't period.. then no doubt some of us will be happy that we drive an extinct marque.. but for some of us, who every so often have to buy a reasonably new car, what will we be left with?... zero.. no sale here move to another manufacturer., do not pass go do not collect 200pounds.

Lets look at Volvo/RangeRover/Aston Martin/Jaguar etc.. they are building their most exciting cars EVER, because of the investment and part sharing Ford have given them... and just because there is part sharing.. it doesn't make them any less identifiable as a Volvo/RangeRover/Aston Martin/Jaguar.

Jeeze.. some of us are really Ludites sometimes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favour of progress.
However.....
All New Vectra - progress? I don't think so.
All new Astra - progress? Hmmm.
I know that we can't turn back the clock, but the number of 900s and 9000s that I see every day (not to mention the odd 99), suggests to me that Saab was producing great cars in fairly prodigious(sp?) numbers not all that long ago.

Are Imprezza owners going to switch to a Saab/Scoob hybrid? None that I know would probably even consider it. BMW owners - unlikely.

I would be surprised if a 4WD turbocharged Saab/Scoob would be much cheaper than a 9-3SS, and that will be a lot of cash for a small/medium hatchback. That rules out the Saxo/Clio brigade.

I don't pretend to be particularly knowledgable about the automotive industry, I just like nice cars, especially Saabs, and I like 'em big and fast.

That's nonsense. Look at Saab's history - they pretty much invented the 'premium compact' when the 92 went on become the 93 and later the 96, and other car manufacturers began to fill the low-end market in far greater numbers and with consequently far lower prices than a small, independent, Swedish manufacturer of fighter planes could ever manage. Notwithstanding that, the little Saabs grew a cult -even in the 'bigger is better'United States and people were happily paying a big premium over say, a Volswagen. Why? Because they were different, nimble, fun to drive, safe - as demonstrated by Erik Carlsson against cars with twice the szie and weight, three times the horsepower and five times the engine capacity. Then came the 99 and that, too, wasn't exactly a large car for what it was. The 99T was pitched against cars physically much larger (CX, Rover 3500, Jaguar XJ 3.4) in it's lifetime - because it was as expensive, refined, fast as those (and moe practical) without the excess bult. Even the 900, although a 'large' car in the longitudinal sense, looks small in a coupé-esque way when parked alongside, say, a Mk IV Golf.
THAT is the heritage of Saab. Smallish, fast, safe, practical, upmarket cars.
The 9000 could be seen as an anathema to that heritage - but again, it was physically smaller, lighter, less wasteful than the cars that directly compared with it when it was new, and had only a two litre, four cylinder engine against the competitions big sixes and V8's.

I think our view has muddles because the competition has upped the ante so much over the last two decades where Saab has been relatively stationary. Where the main competion for the 900 Turbo and 9000 in the '80s were BMW 5's and 7's, Audi 200, Jag XJ's, Merc E-class models, all of these makes have upgraded and up-contented their l(previously) lowest-of-the range models with bigger engines and more sophisticated interior trimmings, so the perception of Saabs as being 'big' cars within their class comes more from the fact that the range of engines and options of say a 9-5 more or less matches that of the 3-series, A4, C-Class where the E-Class, A6, 5-series - at which it is aimed- all have V8 engines of about 4.2-5 litres capacity within their model lineups. That, and the high depreciation of say a 9-5 to the extent that it's actually cheaper to buy second hand than a 3-series!

To be successful, Saab needs to forget about being able to compete in the luxobarge market (they did once, but only by default because of time being on their side - when traditional big car manufacturers either were facing massive quality problems or failed to come up with more compact and fuel efficient cars without losing performance) and return to their core market, being a premium product in a lower segment, rather than being considers the perpetual also-ran in the higher segment. I think an Impreza-based Saab 9-2 could be hitting the bulls-eye in the market if it does the same for the compact segment as BMW's Mini does for supermini's: representing the 'premium' choice by way of heritage, fun-to-drive quotient, perceived quality and unique personality.

Are Impreza owners going to consider it? Not likely, although I know a c900t owner who just bought a 'Preza as a daily driver becasue she needed something newish, wanted the same kind of sporting endeavour and character and could not get that from Saab -at least not at a < $20K budget. I'm in the same boat - save from the latest 9-3 SS which will be out of my price range for sometime, there is no Saab out there which captures the same kind of driving spirit as my classic 900 turbo - actually, a BMW Cooper is a LOT closer. The thought of an Impreza Turbo crossed my mind several times, but over here it already has fallen victim to the testosterone laden, illegal street racing, bass thumping Max Power/ Fast & The Furious brigade. If I was a girl however, I think I could just about get away with driving a Scooby - that would be considered 'badass' whilst for me as a guy everyone would pigeonhole me as a stereotypical lad. For the record, I am turning 36 in a few days and a college-educated professional. Still, the fact that I'm not one of the Saxo brigade doesn't mean that I am after a posh land yacht kind of thingy. If that was the case, I doubt I would have ended up with Saab anyways.

Originally posted by Eric van Spelde:
That's nonsense.[/b]What is? Nothing you've just said actually contradicts what I was getting at.
I know Saabs weren't so physically big in the 60s and 70s, but neither were most other family sized cars.
The fact is, the new Mini is a British design classic manufactured by BMW. In the UK at least that was always going to be a winner, even if the car had turned out to be cr4p. GM and Saab cannot compete with that sort of calibre.
All I'm saying is that GM don't do progress in any sense of the word with which I'm familiar.

This project is actually aiming for an even smaller niche than Saab have historically got.
I cannot believe that this car will ever built.

This project is actually aiming for an even smaller niche than Saab have historically got.[/b]Don't you believe it! First reactions of non-Saab driving foks of my age (a lot of them in company car schemes) on the prospect on such a car getting built are favourable, to say the least. "Fantastic! Can they bring it to the market within the next three months? Please?" That sort of stuff. There's a far greater number of folks waiting to get their hands on a sporty premium compact, than on a 'big, comfy, fast' car that is only FWD and does not come from Germany.

I just can't see Saab making a 4WD turbocharged sportscoupe/hatch for much less than £20,000.
Perhaps I suffer from the fact that I have never, and will never own a company car or be able to afford £20,000 for a new car, but that seems like an awful lot of money for a small-medium sized car that is going to cost a lot to insure.


First reactions of non-Saab driving foks of my age (a lot of them in company car schemes) on the prospect on such a car getting built are favourable, to say the least. "Fantastic! Can they bring it to the market within the next three months? Please?" That sort of stuff. *[/b]You clearly mix in different circles to me. Most of my friends and colleagues thought I must have done a bank job when I bought my 3 year old Saab 900SE Turbo for £10,500.

Isn't the Scooby drivetrain getting on a bit now? And I'm sure I've read somewhere all about massive drivetrain power losses and the like.

Still quite like the idea of this car in principle, but I can't help feeling it's just someone's imagination

James

well why wouldn't saab built an premium uber hatch at circa 20K?????

VW has with the Golf R32.. 230HP@ GBP21K
Alfa Romeo has with the Alfa 147GTV@GBP22K<br />Ford Focus RS@GBP19K<br />
Subaru doesn't have a hatch...and isn't premium.. who does GM have in the portfolio that can meet the needs to go up against the uber-hatch???? why Saab of course.. and the long held heavyweight in the hatch stakes.

Sooo... why not?.. use the already engineered best bits of the scooby.. develop the scooby along the lines as its already been going.. ie. Mitsu/Porsche etc.. killer (22B anyone?). and for alterego Farmers car... Whereas the Saab can go take dents out of the likes of VW, Audi, BMW and Alfa... job done.. and a very European niche killer...

I just can't see Saab making a 4WD turbocharged sportscoupe/hatch for much less than £20,000.[/b]Well, if they dismissed a shortened 9-3SS platform on the grounds of cost, that implies the Scooby underpinnings are to be had for considerably less, which makes it a sound deal for Saab. Futhermore, the base 9-3 SS sells for what - £ 18.7 K or thereabouts? The same 150 hp should be ample for a sporting experience in a smaller and lighter car - if they could keept the base price at around what the 'old' 9-3 went for, yes, I reckon there's a lot of volume to be had. Almost everyone who's near the end of a lease on a Mundano/Vectra-sized car here at the offy says they're considering a smaller and higher specced car. With the abundance of singles, twin-income households, couples without kids or kids already out the door (or fully capalbe to drive themselves around ) the need for something with four doors and a big boot is not as pronounced as it might have been ten or twenty years back when a company car almost always doubled as a family car, the few who do need famil transport are in MPV kind of thingies, and folks are generally looking for something a bit different from a Passat or Mondeo that screams 'sales rep!'at you.


Perhaps I suffer from the fact that I have never, and will never own a company car or be able to afford £20,000 for a new car, but that seems like an awful lot of money for a small-medium sized car that is going to cost a lot to insure.

-

You clearly mix in different circles to me. Most of my friends and colleagues thought I must have done a bank job when I bought my 3 year old Saab 900SE Turbo for £10,500.
* *[/b]Well - you, like me, are definitely looking to the market from the point of view of a secondhand buyer. If you can get something big, comfy and prestigious for the price of something smaller and more common, why not go for it? But you're overlooking the fact that for the privilige, someone has already absorbed an insane amount in depreciation. Maybe if I were to blow 30 grnd on a big saloon, I'd buy a BMW too if that helped me recoup at least some of my hard earned when the time comes to trade in. Look at the second hand market and you'll see that smaller vehicles from 'premium' brands hold their value far better than the luxosaurii wearing the same badge. For the same price as a nicely specced A3, I bet I could pick up an A8 of nearly the same age...

So I keep to my point that the business case for a sporty, compact, £ 16,500 Saab is a better and more universal one than for the current £ 30,000 big, comfy and fast ones. I know I'd scrape together the money for the first, especially as there's a good chance it will work as a driver's car right out of the box and command strong money comes time to trade in, whilst I'd not only lose my shirt on depreciation on the latter, but it would also ned a visit to Hirsch or Abbott to fit my requirements...

Sevenman found this (http://www.channel4.com/apps26/4car/jsp/main.jsp?lnk=211&id=4890) on the story.

Here's the full text from www.channel4.com (http://www.channel4.com)


15/1/2003

Saab is considering a new small car based on a Subaru. A spokesman for Saab confirmed that the two companies are having discussions which could see Saab using the platform from the next-generation Subaru Impreza as a basis for a range slotting beneath the recently launched 9-3. Fed up with Saab's continuing losses, owner General Motors is reworking the so-called Viggen recovery plan in the hope of effecting a speedier recovery. Developing a smaller Saab would provide the company and its dealers with a three-model range that might provide it with the scale economies needed to turn a profit, and bring the brand to a much wider car-buying audience.

The unusual source for the platform comes about because GM holds a significant share of Subaru, whose next-generation Impreza is broadly the right size for the job. It also has the advantage of being unique, what with its flat-four engine and four-wheel drive system. Although Saab has no history of these mechanical solutions, they offer the chance of developing the slightly off-beat product that the company is known for, and Subaru's penchant for turbocharging fits with Saab's long history of turbo expertise.

There are some big problems with this solution, however. First, it would probably make sense to build this car in Japan - shipping half-built cars around the world is not viable - which does nothing to fill Saab's under-used capacity at its Trollhatten facility. Second, there is no diesel version of the Subaru flat-four, a weakness now that at least half of European buyers now demand an oil-burning engine in cars of this class. The Impreza platform, designed around the weight distribution and low centre of gravity of the petrol flat-four, would have to be very substantially re-engineered to take a diesel engine. This alone could make the project unfeasible.

Saab had at one time planned to use the so-called GM Delta platform to develop a new small car, but abandoned the project because it felt the resulting car would not be sufficiently Saab-like. The GM Delta will form the basis of the next-generation Vauxhall/Opel Astra. Saab was also co-developing an SUV with Cadillac (Saab's biggest market is the US, where SUVs sell in vast numbers) but this project foundered too, and the plans to develop a replacement Saab 9-5 in league with Fiat's Alfa Romeo division are in disarray because of the Italian company's difficulties, which are far worse than Saab's.

In another development, Automotive News Europe reports that Saab's owner General Motors has said that the Swedish company's product development and engineering operations will come under the direct control of Opel, General Motors' main European brand. Opel chairman Carl-Peter Forster is reported as saying that "we will see a tremendous amount of collaboration". These plans are among a number of measures intended to turn around Saab's poor financial and sales performances. Last year it sold some 120,000 cars, well below its capacity of 175,000, with the result that in the first six months of 2002 it lost a record £83million. Full-year figures are not yet available, but are understood to be little better. The company has already announced 1400 redundancies - around a fifth of the workforce - which come despite the successful launch of the well received new 9-3.

Some 400 redundancies are in the engineering area, reducing the total staff to 2800; 200 job losses are in administration and marketing and 800 are from the Trollhattan production line.

Currently there are two lines at the plant, a freshly commissioned line building the new 9-3, and an older line making the 9-5. The new line will also make additional models to the 9-3 family, including the estate and the crossover 4x4 based on the 9-3x concept car, and it will now also assemble the 9-5. Sales of this model have dropped significantly since the 9-3's arrival, which leaves the older production line mothballed. The 9-3 convertible will be built under contract elsewhere as before - but at the Magna-Steyr plant in Graz, Austria rather than by Valmet in Finland.

While the reorganisation of Saab's product development and manufacturing operations under Opel appears definite, along with the subsequent loss of some of its autonomy, its product plans remain uncertain. Using Subaru as a resource demonstrates just how far GM is prepared to go to turn the problem Swede around.

*[/b]It explains the link between GM and Suburu anyway - didn't realise GM had a significant stake in Suburu.

VW has with the Golf R32.. 230HP@ GBP21K
Alfa Romeo has with the Alfa 147GTV@GBP22K<br />Ford Focus RS@GBP19K<br />[/b]But they also have the cheaper puny engined versions to sell en masse. Surely they support the more "prestige" versions to a large extent, or at least help avoid putting all the eggs into one basket.
Will we also see a Saab 9-2 1.1TDi? http://www.saabscene.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif

No.. but Opel have that covered don't they?

You can't push an Astra upscale.. no one will buy an Astra at 22k.... but you can push an Evo minded, enthusiast's Saab downwards... it wouldn't dilute the brand.. the engineering tabs would be picked up in the Astra, Scooby and 9-3ss bits... I'ld be in the market for such a car when I replace my 9-3 in 18months time...

Wow, this had got a few of us warm under the collar.


This is no bad thing... at least it could keep Saab alive!!!!![/b]That's true, Saab does need to make a lot of compromises before it can move it's own development forward. Whilst it's sad that the "baby Saab" cannot be manufactured in Sweden at a economical cost, if it turns out to be a good car which gets the critics back on Saab's side then we have to say that the decisions made were correct. If all this leads us to getting the 9-X and a 9-5 with an SVC engine, we should be happy.

Please forgive me for being quick to pick on the negative implications.

Are Imprezza owners going to switch to a Saab/Scoob hybrid? None that I know would probably even consider it. BMW owners - unlikely.[/b]Some would, I think you'll find Graham Cowland of Trent Saab will be enthusiastic about such a car.

Perhaps Saab have done their research, there are a suprising number of people who are fans of both brands, I think most of us here are. I know Mark_A is a former Scooby driver, I'd own one myself it it wasn't for the hideous insurance quotes (which I asked for) and the fact that for the kind of cash layout I could afford I was running the risk of buying one that was about to go pop.

There is currently a similarity between the two cars but quite a gulf in certain areas, as mentioned Scooby's are less than cosseting whilst Saabs are not the best at putting down their considerable torque and power.

Well, BMW drivers drive whatever their boss will let them have don't they? But you've got to be honest and ask WHY should a BMW owner switch brands when the critics constantly pile praise on their cars, albeit often through gritted teeth!? They are good drivers cars after all, we just hate them because a) we're sick of the sight of them and B) they are often driven by the worst kind of coporate ladder climbing wannabe's.

Jeeze.. some of us are really Ludites sometimes.[/b]Well said MarkA.

In simple terms SAAB cannot survive on their own. They have to share platforms and parts with other manufacturers and as long as the parts used are the best available and aren't obviously from another car (visually) what's the problem?

I thought the piece on the Aston Martin Virage Vantage on the back page of the Autocar with the SAAB 9-1 story was very apposite, especially the last paragraph.