12-21-2001, 02:35 PM
Sorry folks. I need to have a rant to set myself up for 25th.
What has bugged me this time is the inclusions list on new cars. ABS TCS etc etc. (I would like a 9-5 5dr).
I appreciate that safety has in the past always been slow/difficult to sell (with v*lv* and saab good examples), apparently because we feel so invincible. Nowadays we have all the 'extras' included whether we want them or not, without somouch as a switch todisengage them or switch off their operation.
I don't want parking sensors. I can park my car. I don't want abs since it removes my ability to maintain max braking if ever needed. (havn't had to use it yet and best braking can still be reached by the driver anyway!). i don't want many of the features that seem to be enforced upon us so that in the future we feel we cant do without them and reach the stage where much of the driving is left to the car itself! With so many airbags (no not the wife - we switched that off), I'm more worried about suffocating if I was involved in an accident. Need I mention self operating wipers for chrissakes?
I enjoy driving rather than being a passenger (in fact I'm a bad one) and if an accident were my fault I would want to take the blame rather than being able to blame 'that useless piece of electronic stuff'. better than that I would want the peron who might hit me not to be able to shift the blame away from themselves to the same thing and be able to join the roads again with the perception of fultless driving or invincibility.
imho these 'add ons' all amount to an increaed revenue stream for the manufacturers and if i understand 'benefit in kind' rules, they increase the cost to the user of the car where the list price is higher. further stealth tax?
give me a car which has the 'extras' that I choose. thats why I'll enjoy my 900 carlsson although c/c would be nice.
rant over. now I'm off to get absoshitly lutefaced!
I might be some time!
12-22-2001, 09:50 AM
Well I can't say I agree with you fully Bambo. ABS brakes have saved my bumper more than a couple of times - but it was a side airbag that saved my life earlier this summer (the seatbelts and solid Saab design helped) when my Saab 9,3 Cabriolet was hit broadside (driver's side) by a distracted Spaniard going just over 80 kph. I lost my spleen and the Saab - but now I have a new MY2002 9,3 Aero Cabriolet - and the TCS can be shut off. Have a Merry Christmas and watch for icy patches if you'd pulled the wiring on the ABS.
Not sure I agree with everything you say, bambo, but I understand your sentiment. I like to feel as though the car is part of me - a spoon in a bowl of rice for a gearbox and pedals that have no feel, like some of the modern euroboxes, are not for me either.
Oh yeah, I'm definitely with you on stuff like automatic windscreen wipers and automatic headlights (Citroen C5!) Christ - I am intelligent and alert enough to know whe I can't see out of the screen ...and if the wipers don't do it I'll stick the lights on!
12-23-2001, 06:47 AM
I presume, then, Bambo, that you do not use a remote for changing channels?
In my view ABS is an essential aid. Braking hard AND steering is not possible without.
I agree that many 'desirable' features are far from it, however.
cadence braking will allow you to steer - alothough it is not has effective as ABS which is same prinicple but much faster.
12-23-2001, 02:22 PM
I am glad you are OK Botanique after your mishap. I really haven't explained myself very well (well whats new there then?).
I've dug myself another hole!!
I have no difficulty with people opting for such extras - honestly! I can even tolerate them being fitted as standard but in these times of choice and demands for safety, I expect to have the small bit of driver input, necessary and be able to turn them off, if i so wish.
I was actually referring to the extras such as ABS TCS auto wiipers. I have no trouble with ew,pas,esr,remote radio,em etc. since they enable the driver to reduce the time spent diverted from the matter of driving.
The ones I complain about either remove part of the need for driver awareness or detract from the feedback to the drivier. Or even worse, they remove the vital information the driver needs in order to maintain safe control of his car. I speak here specifically of the system (is it stability control or something - citroen i think had it first in the xantia dynamic stability control?), that makes a Mondeo for example stick like glue on a bend until it instantaneously breaks away without warning - at which point the car is going too fast to be corrected and can then have an impromptu meeting with a wall - or worse! (sore!)
Wall excepted, i experienced this in mondeo ST200 to see what the system was like. my verdict?
Excellent for track-days but can be more dangerous on road than if racing without it. can lure one into false sense of security on the road where the consequences can obviously be much worse. (actually does give the impression that the cornering limit is not yet reached when all of a sudden - sh!!!!!t!)
Instead of be taken for lemmings hat manufacturers believe we are, and therefore buy all that the manufacturers want to sell us, can't we anticipate when and how much to brake. Or to know that when we cause a break in traction that it would be good to lift off the 'loud pedal'? Could it not be likewise for braking and for cornering: basing the entry speed to a corner on the ability to stop within the distance seen to be clear? It is actually quicker!! )
Progress can then be made both in-bend and on-straight. I recall when I was behind a car which is flying into a bend (yes he was good at speed), and my friend (similarly trained)was driving behind him, we had to slow
Because having gone into the bend a bit too quick, the guy in front had to slow down . (don't know why - he was out of sight when it happened). this ensured that he could apply no acceleration until after the bend and all his momentum was gone.
Meanwhile my friend had gone in slower with less fuss and was piling on the power in addition to his maintained momentum, post apex. As the guy in front had slowed, we were then about 30 mph quicker on exit and had the other guy not been struggling my friend could have kept the power on and breezed past him. It was the first time I had seen the benefits of the cornerig principle and realised that it is very effective. I ve seen it sveral times since and when you combine the overtake on the bend the satisfaction or chuckle factor increases
No I'm not perfect - far from it - but i find it exciting to learn some 'stealth-like' tips which can be pulled out of the hat when needed.
And a bit of excellent training can be passed on in part at least, hopefully with safety benefits for all.
I agree John, abs is a similar principle to cadeance braking and much quicker. But in order to activate it, the brakes have been used to the point of lock-up or on a slippery surface where it can't work properly anyway. If the maximum point of braking can be defined by a specific amount of brake pressure, then it is possible to have max braking maintained wihtout abs and providing more control. Whilst I could do it in the cavalier SRI I haven't mastered it yet in the carlsson. LWB doesn't help but I'll get there.
And Quarryeff unfortunately I haven't used remote radio buttons only because I don't have them.
I agree in their benefit coz I could keep both hands on the wheel whilst I go round the nearest hairpin bend at 90!
Dont forget this started out as a rant - mid hangover! (
FINALLY - there was another thread somewhere about tyres and it asked: which were best. cant find it now so I'll add my bit here. If you want to c&p this into it, feel free as I think it is useful.
Loss of traction/skidding is caused by one, or a combination of these four things:
1. harsh acceleration
2. harsh braking
3. coarse steering
4. excess speed.
tyre type doesn't feature as they are all capable of sufficient grip (pressures and tread depth permitting). maybe that is the better answer I could give to the initial question on that thread.
Happy Christmas to you all. I'm going to find something to gripe to Santa about now -probably about inconsistently large foot-prints on the roof tops or being a greedy ba$t@rd with the beer!! ) so don't worry. you're not the only ones to get it )
01-07-2002, 05:47 PM
ABS is an excellent piece of kit.As someone who has had the privilege of driving a 420 Scania Truck for a living and the pleasure of driving a Saab 900i I can testify to the low standard of driving which makes this invention a life-saver and an anti-dote to the Darwinian theory.