After 3 weeks of having my 1990 9000 in and out of the local Saab Dealer because the Anti lock light was stuck on (after going through a phase of going on and off at random) they have diagnosed that there is a faulty valve in the ABS unit which they say will cost over £700 to replace. They have already replaced the ECU as they said it was full of water. I didn't get the ABS unit replaced but today my car failed its MOT as it has a non functional ABS!!

Can anyone suggest other things I can try (like flushing the brake fluid) or maybe even an ABS specialist in Gloucestershire who maybe able to give me a second opion

Steve

Steve,
You're in a very difficult position. ABS (especially the early units) is regarded as witchcraft by most garages! Can you afford to be without the car for a few days?
I recently came across the website of a company that may be able to help. I will say that I've no personal experience of them, but I kept the details in case I had a similar problem in the future.
Try this link:
http://www.bba-reman.com/abs.htm<br />They offer a 'Hire' unit for testing purposes, and also they re-manufacture your unit.
It would, of course, be worth contacting the local Trading Standards office to see if they've been the subject of any complaints, before parting with large sums of cash!
I understand that 'Two-Stroke to Turbo' also do ABS units, so they may be worth a try as well.
As far as Dealers go, I found Williams at Bristol extremely good recently, when I had Traction Control problems.
I hope that's been of some use to you.

Pete
Gloucester
UK
'91 9000S 2.3 Turbo

Peter

Well the garage (Cheltenham Saab) have said that Two-Stroke 2 turbo have recon ABS units for about £250. If I buy it and get it shipped then they will install it.

Whats worrying me is that what if their engineer has misdiagnosed and all it is is a broken or damaged sensor (for a while there was a violent clunk from the rear passenger side wheel when you applied the brakes, and when I was driving across salisbury plain it sounded like someone was hammering on the back of car as I was driving along - a noise which just stopped when I pulled over to the side of the road).

As I dont usually use the car during the week its not a problem leaving it with someone - just a matter of getting there and back!

Steve

Peter

Well the garage (Cheltenham Saab) have said that Two-Stroke 2 turbo have recon ABS units for about £250. If I buy it and get it shipped then they will install it.

Whats worrying me is that what if their engineer has misdiagnosed and all it is is a broken or damaged sensor (for a while there was a violent clunk from the rear passenger side wheel when you applied the brakes, and when I was driving across salisbury plain it sounded like someone was hammering on the back of car as I was driving along - a noise which just stopped when I pulled over to the side of the road).

As I dont usually use the car during the week its not a problem leaving it with someone - just a matter of getting there and back!

Steve

Steve,
It's possible for a faulty wheel bearing to damage the ABS sensor, as they run very close to the hub. Didi you get the knocking noise fixed? If so, what was it?
When you took the car the Chelt Saab, did they put it on their Tech2 or ISAT machine?
If so, what fault codes did it show up?
I have access to the listings of ABS fault codes, so that may be of some help.
Pete
Gloucester
Uk
'91 9000S 2.3 Turbo.

Pete

The knocking stopped of its own accord - was was wondering if it was a symptom of an ABS malfuction. The clunk that was there when you touched the brakes seemed to go when they had it in to look at the anti lock light problems.

I do not know what diagnostics the technician ran or what he ran it on - all I know is that they eventually came back with the conclusion that there is a faulty valve in the ABS block. They have never revealed any details of what codes were showing up with the ABS unit

I have had the car for 3 years and I know that the brake fluid has not been changed in that time and I am wondering if its something as simple as crud in the brake fluid (the brake warning light sometimes take a minute or so to go off which I have been told is a sign that the fluid needs replacing).

I am starting to have doubts over the technicians at Cheltenham over their ability to service my car - they have admitted to me that they have to rely totally on computer diagnostics as they are too busy to investigate things manually (which explains why it took 2 weeks to find the DI fault which was there but the computer did not report it: it was leaking oil and causing misfires. They only looked at it after I phoned them and told them I had looked at it and it was in a bad way).

Steve

Steve,
It all sounds a bit dodgy to me. I'd be very reluctant to change the ABS unit on the say-so of that dealer alone.
I'd suggest, if you can afford the time etc, going down to Williams at Bristol. They are a huge SAAB dealership and seem to have the expertise required at times like this.
Ring them and ask how much they'd charge for the diagnostics.
If they come up with the same answer, then you're on to a pretty safe bet.
By the way, don't tell them about the investigations done by Chelt Saab. That way they start with no preconceptions!
A brake fluid flush/change is well overdue if your warning lights take that long to go out, so get a price on that as well.

Pete
Gloucester
UK
'91 9000S 2.3 Turbo

Dodgy is not the word.

I did some looking round and found on townsend imports a copy of a Saab technical document about checking the ABS.

So armed with that I went to my brothers and we removed the false bulkhead cover and found the diagnostic socket. We followed the instructions but the anti lock light did not flash on and off. Confused by this we went and did the same on his Saab 9000 and we got the diagnostic all clear code - so we knew we were doing the right thing.

So then we swapped the ECUs and lo and behold his anti lock light stayed on and mine went off.

So the "new" ECU fitted by Cheltenham Saab is, in fact, defective which raises the question of how they got the diagnostic codes off it in order to tell me that the valve unit was faulty

So tomorrow its time for yet another call to Cheltenham Saab - and I think a letter to Saab UK over the incompetence of Cheltenham Saab: who are going to fix this problem and then not get any more business from me.

Its a pity that a good car is being let down by second rate dealerships like Cheltenham

Steve

Steve,
The very best of luck to you tomorrow. I nearly booked mine into Chelt Saab for its Traction Control fault. Luckily they were too busy to do it quickly. Phew!
I'll look out for a huge cloud of black smoke over Cheltenham tomorrow morning!

Good Luck
Pete
Gloucester
UK
'91 9000S 2.3 Turbo.

I intend to have quite a long chat with them and get something back from them for the inconvenience they have caused - I have lost about 12 hours at work because I've had to keep leaving early to get my car there.

I have been told that Montpellier Saab in Gloucester (where I bought the car from) are actually quite good with the older 9000s.

I am going to talk to my local small garage and see if they will do a brake fluid change for me - I could do it myself but it sounds like too much of a pain at this time of year!

Steve

Well after a long chat I now have another ECU in my car, and the brake fluid changed, a full annual service carried out and a valid MOT.

With new brake fluid the brake warning light goes off in about 3 seconds so I guess it must have been pretty old.

Now all I have to do is find another garage to look after my car in future

Steve,
Well done! It makes one wonder exactly what would have happened if you'd let them go ahead & change the ABS unit????????

Pete
Gloucester
UK
'91 9000S 2.3 Turbo

Well done StephenA ,and all who helped him.
I have not had these problems but I am enraged about these Saab dealers giving us a bad service. I had experience a lack of power from my 9000 CSE LPT only to be told by the service 'Manager' of a Saab dealership that after a test drive by himself he recomends I have the gearbox replaced. I took the car the car to my local LEX autocenter who immediately diagnosed and
fixed ( free of charge) a loose wastegate pipe. I gave them a generous tip and my car
will be going to them for the next service.
I believe that Saab ought to know that although we enjoy their marque we do not like being ripped off by their dealership.

If I'd gone ahead and bought a second hand valve unit from 2 Stroke to Turbo then I would have a second hand unit on my hands. If I had gone for a new unit at over £700 then somebody would have a lot to answer for!!

I get the feeling from Cheltenham Saab that 10 year old Saabs are beneath them - they are "old" and more trouble than they are worth. I don't know if this is endemic amongst dealers but it does begger the question why if Saab trade a lot on reliability and longevity that their dealers dont want to see older cars. Cheltenham Saab told me that they dont keep a 9000 ECU in the workshop for diagnostics because they dont see enough 9000s any more.

As more and more Saab documents make it onto the net I am becoming more and more convinced that the best way to keep the car going is to take it to a reliable small garage (there are some really good ones in Cheltenham) for things like regular services. For things like ABD, Ignition etc problems try to do the diagnostics at home and only take it to the dealer if its not solvable.

Steve

Steve,
What excuse did they give for the duff ECU fitted? Was that a genuine SAAB part?
I think you're right about doing the maintenance yourself though.
It's a pity, but it seems the dealers are getting a bad reputation.
As someone who works in the motor trade, albeit on trucks, this really p****s me off!
These people expect us to trust them with our pride & joy, and then rip us off just because its old, or not worth much. Why can't they just be honest and admit they don't want to work on them because it's too much trouble?
End of rant!!
Is your ABS light really going off after 3 secs now? If it is, I'd better change my fluid as mine takes 15 secs to go off in the morning.
Pete
Gloucester
UK
'91 9000S 2.3 Turbo.

Excuse for the duff genunine Saab ECU fitted? Interesting Concept!! No excuses were given at all - the fact that it died when it went into to have the DI cartridge replaced which involved replacing the cable to the DI unit suggests that someone did something naughty like shorted something out.

When I said that I had swapped it with the one in my brothers car and that the problem had gone away they looked at me as if I was mad. That was when I asked them why they had not done that and they told me that the do not keep ECUs in stock because they dont see enought old 9000s any more.

What scared me was the ABS testing unit that goes round turning your brakes on and off. Now I would have thought that you were supposed to use this on a rolling road.... but no, Cheltenham Saab take your car out onto the highway and run the diagnostics as they drive along........

As for the length of time it takes for the Anti lock to go out - yesterday after the vehicle had been standing since Thursday it took 8 seconds to go out.

Steve

Dosnt the ABS light go out when system pressure is correct? If so then the time taken will depend more on the condition of the pump, accumulator and any leaks in the hydraulics rather than the fluid condition. Fluid should be changed once every two years on ABS systems (I do it every year). A few quid on new fluid is a lot cheaper than a new pump!

You would have thought that the condition of the hydraulic oil would have little or no effect on the length of time it takes to get up to pressure but it does.

Not that the garage suggested I change it - I had to ask them to do it.

Just a thought chaps. If the 'old' fluid had a little water in it, then, as water can be compressed (unlike brake fluid), the pump would perhaps run for longer to get the fluid up to pressure.
Does this make sense to you?! Further comment welcome....

Mmm, it's all interesting stuff! Something to bear in mind for the future. (Says he rushing off to change Brake Fluid rapidly :-)

Errr - I thought water could not be compressed which is why driving through flooded roads can cause hydraulic lock if it gets in the cylinders.

However if it makes the fluid harder to compress then the system will take longer to get up to pressure.. I think!!

The brake fluid change sounds quite simple to do (having read it up in the Haynes Manual) - but would recommend that its a two person job.

Steve

Water cannot be compressed any more than brake fluid can be. BUT what it does do is turn to steam at 100oC (depending on pressure). Brake fluid is also hygroscopic so it absorbs water over time. As brake fluid will exceed 100oC under heavy braking, any build up of water is dangerous, as it turns to steam - WHICH DOES COMPRESS! - and you get Vapor Lock! Which means your brakes suddenly stop working JUST WHEN YOU NEED THEM MOST!

So please make sure that you do not leave brake fluid changes move than 3 years (Most Manuals say 2 years). Also, even if vapour lock doesn't occur, the water corrodes the brake system internally seriously reducing the safety of the system.

Unsure how water in brake fluid would affect the time for the ABS light to go out though. Although it would definately affect the hydrolic parameters of the brake fluid.

A seperate point, in response to comments on Main Dealer abilities.

I have found that main dealers 'who go by the book' are of little help (and can be a waste of time and money) with problems associated with older cars. Simply because they have little experience of older car problems - which are not defined in the diagnostic guide books or technician training programmes.

A Mitsubishi dealer once wasted hours trying to fix a missfire, when a back street specialist found a short on a worn HT lead within 5 minutes!

But in terms of Saab's (much better subject!), I had the following gripe re. a main dealer:

My 9000CDE (at the time) lost power and had to be coaxed along with a gentle throttle. A fraction too much throttle and the engine would virtually die.

The 'Engine Fault' light came on and off intermittently during this experience.

Saab main dealer said Turbo Wastegate was sooted up, couldn't be fixed, and I needed new Turbo for 800 pounds. Also said, Idle COntrol Valve (ICV) was faulty, and would cost 180 pounds.

Couldn't buy turbo (even if I had wanted to)as main dealer had to order it.

So I bought ICV - and it had no effect whatsoever!
Me - dubious - you can say that again!

So I phoned a few independant turbo specialists. Found a genuine one up in Yorkshire, who said, 'take it to any guarage and get them to clean turbo. Easy job.
So I did - cost me 60 pounds!

FIXED IT!!!! FOR 60 POUNDS
- Car ran beautiful, as it usedto do.

So, had I paid 1,000 pounds to the main dealer problem would have gone away, and I would have been none the wiser!!!

And 'No', the main dealer doesn't strip and clean turbos - too difficult!!! Must buy a new one!

So I asked for my 40 pounds diagnostic fee back from the main dealer - as a matter of principle (and also a refund of the ICV - which I bought from 2 stroke to turbo for 1/2 main dealer price! 2 Stoke were fine - good place!). But not main dealer. No sir!

So I phoned Saab GB Customer Services, and a quick caall by them to the offending dealer and I had my diagnostic fee back + offer of a discount on next service.

SO... BE WARE OF MAIN DEALERS WHEN THEY QUOTE MEGGA BUCKS FOR OLDER CAR PROBLEMS. It could be simple to fix by someone in the know! And this is what these bulletine boards are for. So keep it up guys..and gals!

Paul

Your comments on your problems with your dealer just confirm what I've suspected for quite some time: Saab are no better than any other car company: Old cars are not worth it - they dont make money from them and so they just take the easy way out each time. if Saab UK are not going to provide service facilities for their older cars at their main dealers why do they not either:

a) release all the tech documentation on the 9000 so that small garages and individuals

B) Create "approved" service centers for older vehicles.

Thats way people would not [expletive deleted] so much about the [expletive deleted] attitudes and responses they get from the main approved dealers.

As an aside I am writing to Saab UK about the fact that it took over 1 month to get an ABS light fixed on my car.

Steve

I agree Steve.

It wouldn't be so bad if main dealers didn't charge 50 quid and hour either.

Why go to a main dealer to pay 50 quid and hour for a diagnosis on an older car which may be wrong?

The other myth is, 'A full Saab service hystory is essential on Saab cars' irrespective of age. So long as good quality oil is used, and changes are within the specified limit (I recommend changing oil at between 6K and 10k for older cars), whats so special about having Saab do the job? Of course there are extra items, but why is it so special Saab do it?

Totally agree with you Paul. I have a 1990 2L 9000 Carlsson with 207k miles on the clock, the last time it saw a Saab garage was at 80k, since then my father-in-law and then myself have serviced the car every 6k and it still runs like clock work. The same goes for a 900T8v that is at 185k miles, again it was 80k when the father-in-law bought it and I got it a 129k miles.